Making the most of a good rifle

[btroj]

Wow, that would be a pain. Like you said though, when the shots count is there such a thing as too careful?

I have never annealed checks but have considered it. Might try it and see if I can tell any difference. I hate extra steps that have questionable value.

[geargnasher]

CONSISTENT neck tension is paramount. Inconsistencies here can show up as stringing and be attributed mistakenly to other issues.

As for gas check seating, the check should be snug on the shank and the boolit base should be solid and square under the check. I have long held that if the boolit base is good, the bump in the butt at firing will marry check and boolit quite handily, the trick is of course to make certain that the marriage is a square and well supported one.

Here's what, so far in my bumbling journey, I have found helps accuracy, PARTICULARLY at higher velocity:

Numero Uno: Static and Dynamic fit. This has been covered many times. I used to think the nose had to engrave, and sometimes it does help, but if every process of building the cartridge is done in a concentric manner and tolerances are reduced to the absolute minimum required for function (brass AND boolit), then the nose doesn't need to "engrave" because it has nowhere to go but straight. There are lots of little details to this that most people miss. I'm sure I'm still missing a few in general.

Numero Dos: Balance the primer, powder charge, powder type, and alloy to the job at hand.

Numero Tres: Make sure you have a rifle capable of shooting well (decent bore condition, bedding, crown, straight chamber, etc). Maybe that should be the FIRST thing, but I started this list assuming the rifle is good.

Numero Quatro: Learn how to shoot.

Here's the .30 XCB (L to R) with a junk case used for an OAL test fit, a ragged chamber cast (throat is smooth as glass, this was a Mulligan, note two sets of rifling marks), and a ready-to-shoot loaded cartridge:



Gear

[btroj]

How often do you plan to anneal those cases Gear? I figure that they will need it every 5 loads or so. Then again with a snug throat, turned necks, and a sizer that doesn't over size they won't work harden as fast due to being worked less. Might never need annealing or maybe after 10 to 15 loads.

Shot any of the new bullet yet? I bet it works well. Love that contact with the rifling. Between that and turned necks and a tight neck chamber that bullet can't help but go straight. Just be gentle on ignition. I plan to use RE 19 to start. I have some old AA3100 I can try too if needed.

[357maximum]

I tried annealing on several toys, but once I got some moulds in my hand that were "right" I quit doing it. I would rather have a slightly loose check/shank fit than an overly tight one...Rick just reinforced my thinking on that.

I watched Dutch4122 shooting a model 71 in 348 one day down in S. Illinois. He was shooting pretty darn good, but I kept noticing something flying and hittin about 20 yards in front and slightly off to the right. His checks were actually coming off consistently and for a reason I cannot remember now(old lyman checks maybe)???, but the boolits were making a pretty good group. His gas checks had about a 6inch group going on the ground out in front of us.

My shooting is never ever going to "totally ruined" by a flyer that lands 1/4 inch out of the group, still bugs me if it happens, but my steel plates and the venison simply do not care. Rick is talking a whole other level of "playing" than what I am normally up to.....might want to listen if he thinks it is worth the effort he just described.

[357maximum]

Gear

Your cartridge on the left is what I normally strive for in a rifle/specialty pistol, but in some guns it simply is not possible. Barring that light "engraving" "engagement" up there I try to get similar marks on the first drive band, or in some guns a simple throat ring around the boolit....all seem to work in their respective instances. It is really nice when you can get both types though.

[btroj]

Those silhouette guys get pretty riled up over misses......

Anyone else ever notice that loads that are really bad and over the top for the alloy tend to throw a grey cloud in front of the muzzle? I can tell right away when loads aren't gonna be on paper. The bullets are stripping from the rifling or something. Odd thing is that some of these loads didn't lead! Accuracy was minute of truck or so at 100 but no leading. Must have been my superior lube!

I agree that checks are better a bit loose than tight. Sizing will snug up a check some but I like to make sure they are on straight as possible. I will try to avoid using a rubber mallet, that is a bit too much work.

[btroj]

Gear

Your cartridge on the left is what I normally strive for in a rifle/specialty pistol, but in some guns it simply is not possible. Barring that light "engraving" "engagement" up there I try to get similar marks on the first drive band, or in some guns a simple throat ring around the boolit....all seem to work in their respective instances. It is really nice when you can get both types though.

That fit isn't by accident. A really good reamer and chamber mated with a great custom mould made to fit that specific chamber and throat. Once I get my rifle I will be seeing if my mould makes bullets that fit that well.

Speaking of bullets, how long do you guys like to let them age before shooting them? I like a month at least, 2 months is better. I want to cast a thousand or so for the new rifle initially and then try to keep well ahead.

[geargnasher]

Anneal cases? What's that?

I'm still in the habit of using the hardest necks I can get and maybe draw them after a few firings in a lead pot (thanks Bob!) IF I have a hard time grouping them Goldilocks method by seating pressure. If I get more than three distinct piles to shoot for groups, it's time for a draw, otherwise the targets tell me, usually before I'm sure at the press. The hard neck habit was picked up when questing for tiny groups alone at average velocities in rifles where snug neck fit wasn't reasonably attainable. Hard necks and a zero-clearance case mouth flare (per Dutchman) helped me snug groups a bunch at mild pressures and with SLOOOOOOW-peaking powders in three different rifles with sloppy chamber necks. At high velocity, the hard necks alone don't cut it but are working ok with tight fit, but I may try drawing them at some point and see what happens in THIS rifle.

My .308 is grouping just over an inch repeatably at 169K rpm with brass that has NEVER had the necks annealed, not even when originally produced. Maybe IT would be a good candidate for an anneal to see what happens, since I've finally got it shooting very consistently at least. Without changing alloy (using 50/50 WQ + 1% tin, 19-20 bhn), treating the necks may be a big improvement. Neck clearance is running right at half a thousandth. Shooting this short-barreled buggar with slow powders may be another hickey, I never went faster than H414 and the muzzle pressure thing may be getting me a bit, too.

Gear

[357maximum]

That fit isn't by accident. .

I realize that Brad, but even in over the counter guns that fit is possible if one is willing to shell out the dough for the mould (A.K.A Tom@ACCURATE) and play with alloy/casting tempo/temp/nose sizing, etc, etc, etc. When my MGM 357 MAX was brand spanky new I actually had 3 points of contact. The way I have (mis) treated that poor barrel has reduced that fit to one point of contact, but she still shoot better than most.

[357maximum]

Speaking of bullets, how long do you guys like to let them age before shooting them? I like a month at least, 2 months is better. I want to cast a thousand or so for the new rifle initially and then try to keep well ahead.

I normally like at least a month or two, but that's another "IT DOESN'T MATTER TILL IT DOES" thing. With my HV toys I try to keep a supply that is 1yr old+, but sometimes I fail at that goal. My 30 Badger, 30/30, and 38 special and other plinkers made with softer mixes I have shot them so soon they were carrying residual warmth from the pot.

[btroj]

Tom is the man. I regret that I never got a mould from BaBore. I always intended too but just seemed to make it happen.

I learned much about fit in the past year. I used to think it meant the bullet diameter was correct for the bore. Boy was I fooling myself.

Fit is a many factored thing. I bought a mould from Tom for my 375. It has the check at the base of the neck with the nose in contact with the throat. The bullet is held at each end at ignition, this helps keep it going straight. I also learned to use some neck flair to help center the neck in the chamber, a 375 was never intended to be tight necked! Using a powder on the slow side to prevent any riveting of the bullet into unsupported areas on the neck or throat help keep my delicate little bullet in the same shape it started.

Yep, I used to think fit was a simple thing. Boy what a fool I was

[357maximum]

Some of the shoot-off targets in Master Class revolver open sight are about the size of a pack of cigarettes. They are at 200 meters.


Rick

If that is offhand I am screwed even if I had the best revolver on the planet in my hands. Give me a rest with a rifle or a specialty pistol and I would feel pretty good though. I like shooting golf balls @ a hunnert, but I require a rest for that. I am never gonna be that steady with that green bottle in my hand.

[btroj]

Laying his back, pistol along side of leg. Looks akward to me but the groups those guys get is unreal.

So Rick, how many older guys shot silhouette? I gotta believe that at some point just getting into position then back up got tough. The body just isn't the same as we get older, or at least that is what my knees say.

Confidence in equipment. That is a huge factor. Knowing that a shot out is your fault and not the ammo or gun is a bit factor in learning to shoot well. Knowing it was you leads you to learn WHY it went out and how to prevent it in the future. Poor ammo or a poor gun just hold you back from learning. Might be why the high masters rebarrel sooner than the marksmen.

[geargnasher]

Gear

Your cartridge on the left is what I normally strive for in a rifle/specialty pistol, but in some guns it simply is not possible. Barring that light "engraving" "engagement" up there I try to get similar marks on the first drive band, or in some guns a simple throat ring around the boolit....all seem to work in their respective instances. It is really nice when you can get both types though.

I know the feeling of wracking the brain trying to figure out how the holy heck to get something to fit when the gun isn't compatible with available components. One reason I threw in the towel and started messing with the 7mm-08 (make proper brass from '06) and finally got on the XCB bandwagon. I probably seated those a bit long, but who knows, haven't put them on paper yet. I have a few hunnert downrange with a slightly different mould that doesn't fit as well and got it consistent at 5/8" and mid 2300s (easy 12" twist).

Talk to me more about how you get away with a little bit of throat ring, that always made mine lead a bit unless I opened the throat entrance a bit for mo' bigger, neck-filling boolits.

Gear

[geargnasher]

Brad, spend some quality time hand-starting boolits into throats and pounding them out again and you get a really good concept of how to strive for a powder burn rate/alloy combo that will at least shove the gas check flush with the throat entrance before the pressure rises enough to rivet the base.

Gear

[btroj]

Brad, spend some quality time hand-starting boolits into throats and pounding them out again and you get a really good concept of how to strive for a powder burn rate/alloy combo that will at least shove the gas check flush with the throat entrance before the pressure rises enough to rivet the base.

Gear

I saw that post. Interesting to see how easy it is to rivet the bullet while getting it I to the bore.

Makes filing the throat and neck with bullet and case pretty important, doesn't it? Give lead a place to go and it will go there when under pressure.

[geargnasher]

Mike, this is a good shot of a throat ring like I think you were referring to, boolit in the middle. One on the right was sized just under throat entrance diameter before hand-seating to check contact:



Brad, yeah, shootin' putty. Don't tell Richard Lee.

Gear

[357maximum]

Talk to me more about how you get away with a little bit of throat ring, that always made mine lead a bit unless I opened the throat entrance a bit for mo' bigger, neck-filling boolits.

Gear

With Super Secret Squirrel Lube of course

Actually what works for me in that really kinda rare circumstance is chemistry defeating physics....I.E. a proper TOUGH/MALLABLE alloy.......one that has at least 4 components from the periodic table in it. Terinary alloys need not apply here without a paper wrapping.

[runfiverun]

I use a nice shiney slug on my stars to seat gas checks.
I get to feel them slide into place and feel them bottom out.

[btroj]

Ah, the old copper alloy again. I really need to try that in my new rifle. I think it will be a good thing. Sure won't hurt anything.