Duplicating the 1907 US Palma Cartridge with cast

[Scharfschuetze]

Too bad about missing the matches, but if your ammo wasn't up to it, perhaps you saved yourself some frustration.

I haven't been to Camp Perry in years so I hope that you can post some photos of the event during the matches.

[madsenshooter]

Lots o pics here: http://cmp1.zenfolio.com/p631990685/h68fea83b#h69a0fee6

[Scharfschuetze]

No Krags in the photos. I hope you'll correct that soon!

[madsenshooter]

Only a couple. Member Diaute is there, pics 24, 29-31. Notice that wind flag in front of him, I like that end of the range.

[madsenshooter]

I've loaded up some of the 311 version of the bullet too. Checked and lubed they weigh 186gr. An intermediate between Thomas' 180 and 190. Seated out into the rifling OAL is 3.20". My 92/96 feeds them very good at an OAL of 3.10, more reliably than the 3.05 length the 316 version has to be seated to. So I loaded up some into and some out of the rifling to see just how much difference a .1" jump makes in grouping. Doesn't seem to me it'd make much of a difference if your loading practices didn't produce any misalignment to begin with. At either length the check is above the neck/shoulder junction. I'll shoot the comparison out of my scoped 92/96. I got some of that old Russian 4895 to use up.

[Mark Daiute]

Thanks for nothing Bob. I'm going on a diet.

Listen, bore trash not withstanding my backyard testing (I'm limited to 50 yards) is indicating that the 311284 by NOE sized to .311 over 50 grains of 872 is shooting better than my eyes can see. I'm using White Label BAC lube and aluminum gas checks. I traded for on this site. The alloy is 60/40 wheelweights/lino.

With any luck at all I'll test the loads this Sunday afternoon at 200 yards and I'll let you know the results. My only concern is that the bore trash will build up and cause accuracy to degrade. So far there is no sign of that.

See you in about 2-1/2 months.

[madsenshooter]

That bullet has a cleaning groove that should take care of your bore trash Mark. As long as you aren't leaving lead behind it should keep on grouping. I mentioned leading cause it appears that was my problem the other day when nothing would shoot worth a hoot. I forgot about firing several rounds at the end of the previous range session that had alloy blowing back on the case neck. I wanted to be rid of them, adventures in pulling cast bullets usually don't work out for me. I'm making a long adventure out of it Mark, day before Perry up to Ypsilanti for a cast bullet match. I got 1968fps with a caseful of 860 under the 311284 some time back. I've got some IMR 7383 on order to fuel these spitzer adventures.

[Bullshop]

Have any of you considered the NEI 30/200 DD from Walt Melander? Its a very interesting design that shoots well. It has a much better BC than any design with a flat nose no matter how small the meplate. It is designed to keep all drive bands within the neck of a 308 case. We have it in inventory and can supply samples. It has become my most used 30 cal for long range shooting.

[Mark Daiute]

That bullet has a cleaning groove that should take care of your bore trash Mark. As long as you aren't leaving lead behind it should keep on grouping. I mentioned leading cause it appears that was my problem the other day when nothing would shoot worth a hoot. I forgot about firing several rounds at the end of the previous range session that had alloy blowing back on the case neck. I wanted to be rid of them, adventures in pulling cast bullets usually don't work out for me. I'm making a long adventure out of it Mark, day before Perry up to Ypsilanti for a cast bullet match. I got 1968fps with a caseful of 860 under the 311284 some time back. I've got some IMR 7383 on order to fuel these spitzer adventures.

That explains why the string of trash on the bottom of the bore and just ahead of the chamber ALWAYS looks exactly the same.

[madsenshooter]

This 365 bullet has an ample groove too. I'll have a couple chances to try an 80 round match before Camp Perry, just to see how far I can get before accuracy goes south. Big difference between highpower and cast bullet benchrest matches where they often clean after each group.

[Mark Daiute]

I've decided to move on, quit analyzing and to spend my time loading and shooting. I've worked just a little with kickers and have decided to move on. I'm a keep it simple kind of guy. 50 grains of 872 under the 311384 is shooting 3/4" groups at 50 yards. I just tried it again in the backyard and accuracy is holding. It leaves behind some bore-trash as someone called it. I've decided to not care about the trash.

[madsenshooter]

Me too, got lots of spitzers cast. The 39.5gr load of RL19 with the 203gr bullet is what I plan on using at Perry. I'll be trying other combinations of alloy and the smaller version of the bullet between now and then though. I just got a neat addition to my Weaver K6 installed on my cutoff 92/96.

[Mark Daiute]

what is the barrel lenght on that rifle. That is just plain too cool. I love it.

[madsenshooter]

24" barrel Mark. I just got the Litschert. It came with an adaptor that would only fit a 48 or 49 made K6. I had to make a .024 thick threaded ring to fit it to my scope. Kodiak Dreamount, Weaver K6 and the Litschert booster, which makes the scope a 12 power, were all from the late 40s, early1950s. In 1950 Weaver introduced scope models like their own 8 and 10 power scope with bigger lenses, putting a hurtin on Litschert. The adaptor has a Unertl lens in it. I've been seriously thinking for quite sometime of having the barrel of one of my full length rifles drilled and tapped so I can use this mount on it for load development. It only takes two holes between the existing sight holes.

[madsenshooter]

After much fussing with the Litschert, I finally made it to the range to shoot the "into the rifling" vs the ".1" jump" loads mentioned in post 26 above. In this rifle, that .1" jump equals a doubling of group size! The six shot 100yd group measures 1.5 tall x 1.3 wide. Load was 32.3gr of Russian 4895, bullet weighed 186gr. Seeing these results first hand, I'll be using the fatter nosed 316365 at Camp Perry, like I thought I would. I'm not about to fiddle with loading some into the rifling for slow fire, and some magazine length for rapid fire. I know, my results are just for this rifle, but I'd be willing to bet results would be similar with the full length barrel.

[Scharfschuetze]

Wow! Looks like you're tracking now. I'll look forward to reading about your trip to Camp Perry.

[madsenshooter]

Yep, I'm heading in that direction! My IMR7383 just arrived today. I'm going to start with a volumetric equivalent of the 39.5gr of RL19. That's 35.6gr of the 7383. I'll work up from there. Next experiment with the scoped Krag will be a comparison of the 316365 sized .311 vs .314, if I can even get the .314 sized round to chamber. It ought to, fired Rem cases come out with a .315 ID neck. I just don't know how good "through the barrel" sizing works!

[Mark Daiute]

Why the 7383 versus 860, 870 or 872?

Teach me oh wise one.

[madsenshooter]

I wasn't getting the groups I wanted out of a caseful of 860 alone. A boosted caseful of 860 was too much recoilwise and more speed than what I need. Boosting less than a caseful requires a filler of some sort. Dacron is ok, other fillers like shot buffer or Puf-Lon blow around, I've felt the grit hitting me in the eyes when shooting with the wind in my face, so fillers like those aren't something to use on a firing line. No doubt some inconsiderate louts do. Besides that, I've ringed the chamber on one of my Krags using Puf-Lon, don't want to ruin anymore.


The RL19 loads were in the ballpark for the 2150fps velocity I'm after, but pressure appears to be on the edge of what my alloy will take, so accuracy is less than I want. If I go with a harder alloy that will take more pressure, I don't have the weight I want to duplicate the Palma load. The solution appeared to me to be a powder slightly slower burning than RL19, like 4831. Just so happens that the 7383 was meant to burn at that rate. It was meant to replace, by volume, the 4831 once used in the spotting rifle of the 106mm recoiless rifle. So, I should be able to get approximately the velocity I want, with the little less pressure that my alloy needs, using it. I just got the jug yesterday, but have fiddled around enough to see, 40gr is about all I'm going to be able to get into a Krag case without compressing the powder, as it doesn't like compression, I've read here. With the bullet seated to the OAL I'm going to be using, I can feel the powder moving just a wee bit when I shake a round. How it'll work remains to be seen. If it works like I think it will, we might be able to call 7383 Krag powder. The powder is designed to burn efficiently at 38,000psi, though that's not the pressure I'm going for. That spotter round is smaller than a 50BMG round. I'll try to get some loaded for the sizing experiment before next week.

Hmm, it doesn't appear it was made to replace 4831, as that powder was never used in the cartridge, except for the proof round. It appears it was made to take up the same amount of space in the case as 4831 does, while working at a lower pressure and a velocity to match the 106mm round. The case will hold 110gr of 7383, or 143gr of 4831. I'd suspect the proof round uses a compressed load of the 4831. Let's see how the math works out. 110/143=.77. Lyman lists a compressed 52gr charge of 4831 as max for the Krag with a 200gr bullet. 52x.77=40 Further mathematical wizardy based on knowing that 143gr of 4831 produces 55,000psi in the proofround, and 110gr of 7383 produces 38,000psi, and that 52gr of 4831 in the Krag case will produce, at a maximum, 40,000psi (probably less), says that 40gr of 7383 should produce around 27,600psi, which somehow works out about right since quickload predicts 30,000psi with the 39.5 load of RL19.

Anyway Mark, it ain't 50BMG powder like 860, 870, 872, etc.

[RPRNY]

Yep, I'm heading in that direction! My IMR7383 just arrived today. I'm going to start with a volumetric equivalent of the 39.5gr of RL19. That's 35.6gr of the 7383. I'll work up from there. Next experiment with the scoped Krag will be a comparison of the 316365 sized .311 vs .314, if I can even get the .314 sized round to chamber. It ought to, fired Rem cases come out with a .315 ID neck. I just don't know how good "through the barrel" sizing works!

FWIW, I paper patch for my Krag, both the Lyman 311041 and the 311284, to .314, sometimes very close to .315. I paper patch to the throat as my Krag has a non-original barrel that slugs to .3095" groove, so theoretically, these are waaaaay overbite. Nevertheless, they shoot consistently better than ones patched to .312.

From this, I would infer that a boolit sized to .314 is going to fill the throat very nicely and with a Springfield Armory barrel, at least one of which I have slugged at .311, you may find a real shooter! Good luck.