Duplicating the 1907 US Palma Cartridge with cast

[madsenshooter]

According to The History and Records of the Palma Match (The World Long Range Rifle Team Championships) by Colin C. C. Cheshire, 1992; 1999. p.4.97 "The USA shot with the "Krag" Rifle of service pattern and regular Ordnance issue with aperture sights. The ammunition by the Union Metallic Company was loaded with 36 1/2 Grains of W.A. powder and the Thomas pointed bullet Of 203 1/2 grains, giving a muzzle velocity of 2,140 foot seconds."

I'm going to try to duplicate the load this year for Camp Perry, since my alloy now has my NOE 316365 spitzer bullets weighing just that much. I've shot a really good short range group in the past using that amount of powder too. In my case it was RL19. If I can get accuracy equal to the jacketed match bullets I used last year, that's the plan Mr Peabody put up on the drawing board.

It should be relatively easy to get that velocity using an alloy that I've added some copper to pushed with some slow burning powder. I found out the other day that my new alloy will take more pressure than the alloy I was previously using, which was too high in Sb. Spitzers are a problem in some Krags, but my 92/96 rifles feed them well.

[725]

A wonderful quest. Many years ago I got out of the latest - greatest, bigger - better mind set. Now I delight in just what you are doing. Go for it - good luck!

[frnkeore]

I too, like your project and am interested in the results. I have a 1898 Krag, a NOE 311365, lino and some vintage Hodgdon 4831 surplus powder.

Are you saying that your going to magazine load the 365 and not single load, as the 203 Thomas did? Will the GC still be above the shoulder at 3.089?

Frank

[madsenshooter]

Frank, I'm using the 316 version of the mold. I size it down it two steps, as cast down to .314, then down to .311, and heat treat afterwards. The 316 version has a fatter nose, it measures .310-.311 at the crimp/cleaning groove where yours would be closer to .305. As a result, it literally stuffs the throat of my .310 groove diameter barrel at an OAL of only 3.05". The gascheck would be just a tiny bit below the neck/shoulder junction, about the height of a gascheck. I have a couple 92/96 rifles that feed spitzers well. I have to magazine feed for rapid fire at Camp Perry, and I've built a charger to facilitate a quick refill of the magazine. Spritzes them in with one finger. It ain't pretty, but it's functional.

[Scharfschuetze]

I'm watching too. I've got a very nice 1898 Krag and I've been planning a similar project, but not quite so ambitious. My goal is to get the Lyman 311284 to about 2,000 fps to match the standard ball loading of the Krag and hopefully to follow the trajectory markings on the rear sight at the various ranges.

Love that speed loader for the Krag.

[frnkeore]

Love that speed loader for the Krag.

Me, too and I bet Ole' Teddy would have made you a millioneer for that idea

Frank

[madsenshooter]

Scharf, a fellow Krag shooter is making a version of the loader and selling them on ebay. I have the NOE version of the 284 too, if the spitzer can't cut it....Oh, I'm also using an 1898 rear sight ramp, the one made for the 2200fps load that was cracking lugs, hoping to be a little closer to the graduations, though it really doesn't matter to me. Here's some tidbits about the little serrations on the side of the 1902 sight: http://www.jouster.com/forums/showth...nd-1902-sights

[JeffinNZ]

I'm watching too. I've got a very nice 1898 Krag and I've been planning a similar project, but not quite so ambitious. My goal is to get the Lyman 311284 to about 2,000 fps to match the standard ball loading of the Krag and hopefully to follow the trajectory markings on the rear sight at the various ranges.

Love that speed loader for the Krag.

My Mk VI duplicate load for .303 Brit is a 220gr bullet over 41gr H4350 for 2050fps. Would be suitable for the Krag I would think.

[RPRNY]

My pet Krag load is based on CE Harris' "Deer and 600 yard Load" and is the Lyman 311041 180grs GC (weighs 186grs) over 22 grs IMR 4227. This delivers 1835 fps in my 1896 Krag and 1851 fps in my Ruger No 3. I'm not sure that 4227 will get you to 2150 with that 203grs but it's at least another data point for you.

[madsenshooter]

I'll take all the data points I can get as I no longer have access to a chronograph. With the 311 version of the bullet, I was getting a tad over 2000fps with only 36.5gr of RL19. But the fatter nose 316 version increases the full bore bearing surface of the bullet substantially, so I know I'm not going to get the same velocity with it. I have SPP210 which is about 4198 speed, RL19, Accurate's surplus DP85, Accurate 2700, W760 and a boosted caseful of W860 to try before July. One of those ought to give me the results I'm looking for. Last year I used Nosler 168gr match bullets. They gave me a fairly consistent 1.5" iron sight grouping.

[Scharfschuetze]

Thanks for that info Madenshooter. My rifle has the 1902 sight and thus should be good to go for the 2,000 fps loading.

Do you have a name or search term for that Krag speedloader? My search terms come up with every kind of speed load but the one for a Krag. A speed loader would certainly open up some opportunities for some light competition at the local level with the old girl.

[frnkeore]

Do you use a 303 stripper clip in your speed loader?

Frank

[madsenshooter]

Sharf, just search Krag charger on ebay. No Frank, I do use the fingers off a K31 charger cause I made mine of really thick .035" brass. The one on ebay was designed by a fellow who uses the handle parashooter on several boards. He designed it, but didn't want to make them, a fellow I've shot Krags with at Camp Perry the last couple years decided that he would. If he wasn't my friend, I'd make them out of aluminum and undercut him.

[madsenshooter]

It's 7:18am, 29 degrees, I'm patiently waiting on a warm front to come through. I've loaded up the ladder from 36.5gr to 41gr with RL19 and DP85 and I have a couple loads of boosted 860. Just for fun I loaded some near max charges of 10B101 too. Just need things to get a little warmer, I hate shivering while shooting.

The Krag has a front blade that is .070" wide and .100" taller than original that I made for it. It has an 1898 rear sight that someone cut a deep V notch in. I'm trying to use a sight picture that has the front side stud level with the top of the V, the wider post sticking up where I can see it without distortion. The barrel was free floated when I got it, from the front of the receiver ring to about 1/2" behind the upper band, the lower band is fitted so that it is tight to the wood, but barely touches the barrel.

I guess while I'm waiting I'll clean the barrel and prefoul it with LLA thinned with Marvel Mystery Oil.

[mikeym1a]

WELL, it's up to 35F here at my house, and that's with the sun facing me. I'd like to go shooting, but got a lot to do today. Maybe If I get off my duff and do It, I'd still have time. Decisions, decisions................

[badgeredd]

Madsenshooter,

Are you water quenching your bullets? I am following this thread with interest and wish you great success at Camp Perry.

Edd

[madsenshooter]

Heat treating Edd, baking them in a little convection oven that minimizes the temp swing at 435 for about an hour and a half, then quenching. The sized bands turn a glassy black. I'm not getting any growth with this alloy, and I haven't done any hardness testing, though I did set aside some culls that I heat treated too. Just gotta find that pesky little scope once they've aged a couple weeks.

[madsenshooter]

Didn't shoot any groups worth writing home about today, so I'll write it here. Looks like I should have been going down the ladder instead of up! 38gr of RL19 wasn't bad, first shot was after I'd shot several loads with 10B101 that were blowing alloy back on the caseneck. Despite that, 9/10 of those were in the black of the SR1. 39.5gr of RL19 was the best of the day, groups got larger as the charge went up. Oddly, the 38gr of DP85 was blowing alloy back on the caseneck too. It's supposed to burn about the same speed as RL19, maybe it was faster because I was using a WLRM primer. But I know it needs a magnum primer, otherwise I get little unburned balls falling into the chamber upon extraction. RL19 didn't blow any alloy back, not even at the 41gr charge. I'll go back down the ladder with RL19, but it appears I need something that burns slower, but cleanly, and doesn't require a magnum primer. Maybe some RL22 or 25. None of the duplexed 860 rounds hit the target, I think they all went over the top, though I had the sight set all the way down. They didn't blow any alloy either. The 50grs total of powder was more recoil than I care to deal with! They must've been hauling, hit at least a ft above the other loads. I was shooting off the top of my car, a fellow was shooting off the bench with his two young daughters when I got there. Actually I liked it better, the roof of the bench keeps my sights shaded, and there isn't any shade when shooting highpower! Using the powders I have to work with, I may not get the velocity to duplicate the 1907 load, but that doesn't matter a whole lot, long as I have the bullet weight/style and it hits where I want it to.

[madsenshooter]

I got out with the down the ladder loads yesterday. Nothing shot worth a hoot! Even the 123gr jacketed loads that have shot moa in the past were unpredictable! BadgerEdd was kind enough to run some quickload figures for me that I received yesterday. Quickload says the two RL19 loads above are right in the ballpark for 2150fps and should be running around 30,000psi max pressure. However, I either have not enough or too much of something in my alloy. Unlike the guys using the coppered alloy for hunting, mine is failing between 30,000 and 36,000psi. A quick pressure rise, like that from a magnum primer with DP85 will cause alloy to blow back on the caseneck. 10B101 is doing so at a predicted PSI of 36,600. The slower pressure rise of RL19 with a regular primer and the boosted W860 loads don't. I don't know if it was the culprit, but I used a Dacron tuft filler with about all of yesterday's loads. Back to the drawing board Sherman!

[madsenshooter]

OK, I'm back at the drawing board. Missed a couple matches this weekend, company kept me up both nights before. I only have enough RL19 to load for a 50rd match, with enough left over for Camp Perry too. I have some other alloys to try. With one they're weighing 190gr, but what the heck, Hudson designed 180s and 190s too, I can just say it's a Hudson style load rather than the 203gr 1907 Palma load, though that alloy isn't out of the running yet. But, after reviewing the data sent to me, looks like 4831 burn rate would be ideal, and the price of 7383 is hard to beat right now.