Progress on rifling machine and rifled choke tube!

[uscra112]

Plain iron pipe like that is nasty stuff to machine. Gummy, stringy. No wonder you have problems.

Wonder if you can still get lignum vitae? That would be the wood for your rifling head.

[dave roelle]

http://www.woodfinder.com/search.php?search=Lignum Vitae

Seems its still an option

Dave

[Reg]

uscra112 is actually being very nice in describing plain iron pipe as being "nasty stuff to machine". It's every bit of that and more. For experimental purposes especially in such a short length, think I would get a short chunk of Stressproof . It has some debatable characteristics as far as usefulness goes but it machines like butter and would allow you to perfect your processes. Also better than a piece of pipe would be a short of "Electric Weld" tube or a short of DOM. The Electric Weld has a visible seam in it but it is quickly removed with a reamer. The DOM is basically the same but the seam is removed by internal rolling and I think they run it through some kind of pacification process as it doesn't seem to be as stringy.
Thinking on the rifling head, I have noticed that many of the older heads that I have seen that were made of wood, seemed to be made from a Oak, perhaps a Red Oak, it seems to be very tough.
Since you are dealing with a bigger diameter than say a normal 30 or even 45 caliber barrel it might be such a thing as your head itself be made from some tough wood, red oak or perhaps even lignum vitae ( this to protect the finishing bore ) but say use a 3/8" end mill and mill out a pocket for a tight fittiing piece of square brass and that in turn could be milled out to accept a cutter made from O2. I would try it fitted with a pivot pin at the front and a very ( very ) fine threaded screw in the rear to control the raising of the cutter. I would try to make this elevating screw about 40TPI. 40 TPI = .025 per revolution. Would help control a bit just how much the cutter is raised.
I first saw the process of using the twisted steel , square, rod for a guide in a book on making black powder barrels I got from Brownells many years ago. The author said he made many very good barrels from the process. Yours is the first where someone has ran with the thoughts and am wanting to see how it works out. I think you are on to something.
Please post some pics soon as you can.

[longbow]

Pics coming shortly! I have been too busy on too many projects.

The pipe isn't actually too bad using the file edge cutter. I used the cutter design from the Toad Hall book using the edge of a bastard file instead of a hook cutter.

The wood I used for the rifling head is "mystery wood"... an old hardwood broom handle that appears to be similar to either walnut or mahogany. It happened to be handy, hardwood and about the right size requiring minimal turning.

It was I think a bit soft for the purpose so oak, maple, maybe birch, maybe black locust and a few others would have been a better choice. Lignum vitae might be harder to work than the pipe! Once done it would likely be indestructible though.

However, using the epoxied cutter and large shoe under the cutter, things are going very well. I like that design better than shimming directly under the cutter.

Just don't be expecting fancy when I post pics because fancy it isn't! Functional yes, well finished and fancy, no. I built it out of scrap I had laying around just to get going. If I sat down and designed then made drawings it would be days to weeks of that then trying to procure all the bits. By just building it I have a working rifler that can easily be reproduced and fancied up if a guy wants to.

If I get time tonight I will take some photos.

Longbow

[longbow]

Here they are, the long awaited photos!

Like I said, not fancy but functional.

Here we go:

- photo 1-Assembly: the rifling machine in all its glory (rust and all)


- photo 2-Cutter head:

Mystery hardwood with epoxied file edge in place (inletted into the wood by about 3/8")


- photo 3-Assembly end view:

Showing draw handle, indexing plate with inner bolt circle of 8 and outer bolt circle of 12 so I could do ~ 4 groove, 6 groove, 8 groove or 12 groove. I picked 8 groove for this. I like the idea of deep rifling of at least 0.010", wide grooves and narrow lands. Also shown is my cobbled together pin and clamp to locate the indexing plate to the locator plate behind with clamp studs to hold things together ~ quick release to rotate, locate and clamp all at once. Looks a bit weird but it works really well.


- photo 4-Apart

Here you can see the locator plate on the bolted guide body with two holes in it, one for each bolt circle.


- photo 5-Cutter head

With shims in place as it was used to cut this rifling.


- photo 6-Cutter head parts:

This shoe and large shim approach works very well and is so much easier than trying to handle little tiny cutter size shim papers.


- photo 7-Indexer Plate & Bearing

The indexing plate is a press fit onto 3/4" pipe and the locator plate is a press fit onto 1" pipe (bored to remove seam and fit to 3/4" pipe is pretty good). The bearing is range scrap cast into the 3/4" pipe with the twisted 1/2" square bar centered in place. That worked out perfectly. Quick and easy and perfect fit.


- photo 8-Barrel

Rifling looks not bad! It isn't quite deep enough but I think it proves the point so time to get some 4140 and make a choke tube.


- photo 9-Barrel

Again, rifling looks not bad for a first timer with a crude rifling machine and a piece of pipe for a choke tube simulator.


And before someone else says it... "Hose clamps! What the...!?! Well, crude as it is the hose clamps hold that chunk of pipe just fine. Once I decide on a choke outside diameter (about 1 1/8") I will likely make a choke tube holder that bolts down to the angle trough.

Oh, I should add that I clamp the whole works in my vice when rifling. That sets is at a nice height and works well. That main body tube is a piece of hollow structural steel that used to be my boat trailer tongue until a rather ignorant driver backed into my boat on the trailer and bent the tongue (and cracked the boat glass). "Oooohhh I didn't see that big white and yellow boat" she said... well she said "I didn't see the boat" but it is big and white and yellow.

Choke tube is next on the agenda. I will have to remake my wooden cutter head but no big deal. I may just heat the file edge to soften the epoxy so I can remove it then turn down the cutter head to suit the choke ID of about 0.710".

What would I do different if making another one you ask? Well, I would probably:

- make both the indexer and locator plates a bit larger in diameter
- make the worm somewhat longer by about 4" to 6"
- possibly thread the indexer plate to the 3/4" pipe so I could use it on another worm/bearing assembly. As is, I would have to melt out the bearing or make another indexer plate to put on another worm bearing assembly.
- use more new material and clean rust of old material before taking photos

All in all this one works pretty well so I am happy anyway.

That's all I've got for now. Yeah, I know, I can be long winded.

Longbow

[Reg]

Very good. I like the indexer. Subtend this out to say 48 inches and I can see it doing ML barrels which I is what I am interested in.

I have some good pieces of hedge or Bois d'arc that have been curing for about 2 years. Not quite as hard as lignum vitae but still hard as heck. Should wear well. If you want to try some, let me know.

[AlaskanGuy]

I diddnt see no duck tape on there.... Cant be a home brew without duck tape.... It needs some alaskan band-aide...

[Cap'n Morgan]

Longbow.

I love your choke rifling machine! From the photos the rifling looks more than deep enough. The height of the rifling adds little to the anti-shear force in a contained environment, like a barrel, as the lead has nowhere to go.

BTW: At one time I thought of rifling a shotgun barrel using an expandable multi/micro groove broach, but like most of my whacked out ideas it came to nothing.

[longbow]

I have been thinking about this for a long time but haven't had the motivation until recently. I was originally planning to make the "Traditional Iowa Rifling Bench" per Steve Bookout's manual and video which I have. However, the bench itself is a project and is rather large since it is intended for full length muzzleloading rifle barrels. I really didn't need a major project like that and don't have room for about 9' to 12' of rifling bench in my basement. I just wanted something short to make rifled choke tubes... and cheap and simple. Carving all those grooves in a worm has always made me wonder ~ why not lay strips around the worm then dowel or screw down? Well, some did that but I still wanted simpler and the simplest worm I could think of was twisted square bar.

It happened about 3 weeks ago I was rummaging around my messy shop and found some hot rolled 1/2" square bar (I had been planning on buying some 1/2" keysteel as it is smooth and accurate) but I had this in hand so draw filed the scale off it, clamped one end in the vice with about 14" sticking out, got two large Crescent wrenches on the end like a Tee handle and twisted. Amazingly it came out alright so I got a protractor and twisted to give 1:72" as close as I could gauge. I had a worm!

Next task was to make the bearing. Now I had been planning to use bronze round bar in holders to rub on each flat to guide the worm but my hillbilly buddy in North Carolina suggested casting lead around it and I thought "Why not?" so I did and it worked. The major issues were solved.

From there using what I had on hand and what would fit my little lathe I cut out then turned the locator plate and indexer plate and made a press fit to lightly turned pipe OD's for "press" fit (actually bludgeon fit is more correct since I used a large piece of copper bar to "press" the plates onto the pipe using violent repeated introductions of copper to steel)... but it worked!

I had planned a slightly different locating pin and lock but due to a layout error on my part I had to drill out the pin holes from 1/4" to 5/6" which left little clearance to the 1" pipe (oops!). I started off using a 5/16" bolt through both plate but was fiddling with the nut all the time so went with the clamp "studs" on little arms. That may look funky but again, it is quick and easy to use when rotating the indexing plate and makes for quick disassembly.

The short story is that the twisted worm and cast bearing works well and no reason someone could not use the same idea for a full length rifled.

The cutter I copied from Steve Bookout's manual except I epoxied mine in and shim under which I find easier. The file idea is great! I just used an angle grinder to cut a file up then bench grinder to remove face teeth and set width and length. It may not remove metal as fast as a hook cutter but is easy and works well enough for me.

From there all you need is a bed of some sort to hold the bearing/worm/cutter in line with the barrel and away you go. I used a piece of 1 1/2" x 1 1/2" x 1/8" angle from an old bed frame. The ODG's (and Steve) used wood plank beds then uprights with holes in and wedges to hold the barrel. The worm and cutter was guided on the plank bed.

For quick and easy it is hard to beat angle welded to a chunk of HSS or channel, or whatever, to hold it all in line then use the angle to center the rest.

Hah! I have a rifled piece of pipe now and intend on making a choke tube but have not even test fired my last two or three versions of Brenneke and hollow base slugs. I came to the conclusion that a drag stabilized slug is not likely to provide the consistent longer range accuracy I am looking for. I do like round balls though and the rifled tube should provide good accuracy with them out to 100 yards or so. We will see!

AlaskanGuy: By the time I tried the "Alaskan bandage" it was so oily duct tape wouldn't stick or you would likely see some there.

Reg: Thanks for the offer but I do have other wood that is not "Mystery" wood like I used. With the epoxied cutter the "mystery" wood works well enough anyway. I am more inclined to make a bow out of Osage than a cutter head! I would love a nice bowstave of Osage but I have been too cheap to buy one because I have lots of yew, maple, black locust and a few others. All make good bows but Osage is a beautiful wood especially when made into a bow. I am talking selfbows here not laminated.

I don't see any reason this can't be stretched and full length barrel made with one. If you want to try it out I will be happy to share whatever info I can help with.

Cap'n Morgan: Good to hear from you and thanks. I am not so sure a speeding slug won't strip if rifling is shallow though. I have read some on Fosbery's efforts to get the Paradox system to work and he wound up using deep aggressive ratchet rifling in a choked barrel from something like 0.740" groove to 0.690" bore at the muzzle ~ that is some squeeze down! Possibly the main reason for the spool shaped Kynoch slugs with narrow driving bands and REALLY large, deep groove. In any case, I want at least 0.010" deep rifling with narrow lands just in case.

Longbow

[Hogtamer]

For anybody that has contemplated scratching a bow out of bois d'arc, a piece of steel pipe oughta be childsplay! hehehe

[Reg]

Don't have any chunks of Osage laying around right now that would make up into a bow but should be going back in S.E. Kansas later this spring, will see what I can find.
We just chop it up and use it for smoking. Good stuff !!
Surely it will go through customs ??????? Only other problem might be the length. Have supplied several bowers and they want sections six foot or so long.

[mj2evans]

This is really cool and the reason I hang out on this site .... people actually DO things. I have watched videos on the colonial era rifling process. Really great to see someone actually using this "forgotten" knowledge. Just proves you don't need CNC to make something in metal or a $4k tablesaw to cut wood.

[nekshot]

this is clear as mud to me but i am impressed. This is how I learn, watching and listening. I never heard of that bois arc wood or whatever you call it. Is this stuff harded than rock maple?

[Reg]

I don't think it's harder than rock maple, few woods are, but just the same it is plenty hard enough. Resists decay which is why it is a favored wood for fence posts.
Also called Osage orange, hedge wood. Has a long and very stringy fibrous structure to it, a lot like hickory.

this is clear as mud to me but i am impressed. This is how I learn, watching and listening. I never heard of that bois arc wood or whatever you call it. Is this stuff harded than rock maple?

[longbow]

Osage is tough wood for sure and it makes beautiful bows! Is starts out almost an electric orange colour then gradually darkens to a purpley colour. It is UV sensitive. I guess more importantly it has been a particularly useful wood for bows, fence posts, tool handles and about anything requiring supper tough wood and as mentioned it is decay resistant.

Unfortunately it does not grow where I am. We have something reasonably close but it is actually a transplant ~ black locust. I have made bows form black locust and they do real well. Also an attractive wood and I would say harder than red oak.

I would have figured you were right in the heart of Osage orange country neckshot but maybe I am off a bit.

Longbow

[nekshot]

Longbow you have me at the right place, only that I am here almost 12 years and don't know all goodies about the area. There is a place north west of us called bois de ark or however you spell it! Do you contemplate the ability to rifle a short shot gun tube as from a win 1300 defender or those mossberg shorties?

[FrankG]

Very cool ! Ive read lots on the machines but have never tried to make one . How did you get a good twist on your rod ?

[longbow]

nekshot:

I was planning on making a system like the old Pachmyr Power-Pac using a solder on barrel adapter, muzzle brake then choke tube that has threads near the muzzle and leaving about a 1/2" to 3/4" gap between choke tube and muzzle for gas escape into the brake.

One of the main reasons is so I can have a large shoulder on the choke tube to accommodate the reactive torque from the slug hitting the rifling at full tilt. I have read accounts of rifled choke tubes torquing up so tight they had to be removed be a gunsmith.

The Pachmyr style choke tubes run around 4" long or so. No reason it could not be longer. I do want to try to match "standard" threads though and plan to use a thread pitch of 32 TPI and thread location so that factory tubes will fit... if I can do that.

FrankG:

Mostly by luck!

Funny story ~ I was planning to buy some 1/2" keysteel which is shiny and smooth and accurate dimensions but as luck would have it I found a short piece of 1/2" A36 (hot rolled scaly and ugly steel) in my basement. Being cheap and impatient I decided I would give it a twist to see if it would go okay. First I quickly draw filed the scale off it then got two large Crescent wrenches and put then 180 degrees to each other like a Tee handle, clamped the bar in my vise and twisted. It went pretty easy so I calculated how many degrees twist would make 1:72' twist then used a protractor and eyeball alignment then twisted again. Got it pretty good.

Then when I decided I better cast a bearing I realized I had put a left hand twist in the bar!?! OOPS! That would unscrew choke tubes. So, I reapplied vice and wrenches then twisted the opposite direction, not thinking this would be successful but so it was. Took it back through "zero" then re-twisted the same amount in the opposite direction to get right hand twist. It had a bit of a bow in it so I lined it up along a straight edge then applied arm muscle and vice jaws to take out the bow. Again, it worked well enough.

I drilled and tapped the inner 3/4" pipe at each end for 4 screws to clamp and center the bar, plugged one end of the pipe and poured in some good hot melted range scrap. once cooled things were kinda tight but I squirted some WD40 on the bar then put the works in my vice and wrapped the end of the bar with a mallet. It was tight but moved so more WD40 and a wrap the opposite direction. After a few wraps it was free and moving well so 30 weight oil was applied and I had a smooth running worm in a lead bearing.

Not too difficult at all.

Longbow

[W.R.Buchanan]

Longbow: great job and your rifled piece of pipe looks pretty damn good for a first try. I'm sure you will refine whatever needs it as you progress.

Your idea of using twisted Square stock is the easiest and best way to make a twist mandrel. If you buy Cold Rolled stock it will likely be pretty close to .500 x.500 +/- maybe .001-2, which is close enough for what you are doing. Key stock is cold rolled but it is usually plated with zinc for corrosion protection.

The idea of casting the follower around the mandrel is the way to do that too. If you were to build some kind of jig so that your follower casing (tube) would be held centered up on the mandrel while you poured the lead, it would make it easier to change twist rates since everything would be aligned from mandrel to mandrel. Also the longer the follower, the longer it will last,,, and if oiled frequently it should last a long time since Babbitt bearings in engines do last, and Babbitt is similar to lead.

I think you're on the right track and hope it all works out for you.

Randy

[303Guy]

Very interesting. I just happen to have a single barrel shotgun that is screaming out to fire cast round balls or slugs at feral pigs. That gun was purchased with the idea of suppressing it for possum and rabbit shooting at night in semi-rural areas. Never happened. But an accurate slug gun would be nice.