Progress on rifling machine and rifled choke tube!

[longbow]

Well, like the title says, I am making progress... slow but progress.

My rifling machine (I use the term loosely) is finished or at least the prototype is finished. It is a modern take on the old style wooden rifling benches but smaller and made of steel. I will post some photos after I neaten it up some.

In any case, it works! I started rifling a piece of 3/4" pipe as a trial run. I learned a few things and I believe I will modify the rifling head.



I used the old style wooden rifling head with inletted cutter. Not going as well as it might though it does work. The cutter is a slip fit into the inletted head and I used paper shims to raise the cutter but it keeps coming loose so I think I will change the design slightly and add a shoe under the cutting head then shim the shoe.

In any case, the goal was deep wide grooves and narrow lands. My trial run on 3/4" pipe has turned out not bad though rifling is probably only about 1/2 depth right now. Grooves are about twice as wide as lands. I may take it all the way as I am still learning so I might as well learn on pipe.

After I practice a bit then modify the cutter head I will pick up some 4140 to make choke tube, barrel adapter and muzzle break.

I have to say that dragging a rifling cutter through a barrel (short as it is) is work! Not sure how many strokes I have done but I was running from 25 to 100 strokes per groove (depending on cutter "bite") then re-shimming and run around again. So far I have used about 15 paper shims so LOTS of strokes and still only half there.

I may modify the cutter some too. I think it has too much surface contact so fewer teeth should increase cutting edge pressure and metal removal ~ and work, but less strokes.

Longbow

[Dryball]

Very interesting. Check out youtube. There's a series on there called the Williamsburg gunsmith. Shows him building a flintlock from scratch and it focuses quite a bit on the rifler.

[bikerbeans]

LB,

I like your project! Pretty soon you will be making full length rifled slug barrels.

BB

[AlaskanGuy]

I cant wait to see how this turns out LB

[texassako]

Pretty cool! I have Guy Lautard's DVD's on Bill Webb's rifling machine and most of the materials in a box under the bench waiting for space and time to complete it. Yours sounds simpler and not as large, and I would like to see a photo of the cutter if possible.

[sirsloop]

Looks like a fun project... What are your end goals?

[Reg]

Looking good. Would like to see more, the machine, the head and how you do it.

[Hogtamer]

LB, I'll send you a sawed-off barrel smoothbore 870 barrel to rifle so I can be first in line when you go in business or just need a guinea pig to test one on!

[longbow]

The goal... strange as it may sound to some... is to have a modern Paradox gun that will handle shot and slugs well to 100 yards or so.

I have tried with smoothbore but I certainly have not found any magic bullet/boolit/slug that performs consistently out to 100 yards giving dependable groups of under 6".

I am quite happy with my smoothbore round ball (and some slug) loads to 50+ yards but at longer range groups do get significantly larger.

I know, it would be easy if I just got a fully rifled barrel, but I like smoothbores and I like the idea of a Paradox gun. I just can't afford H&H's prices.

In any case, it keeps me off the streets. A guy needs a hobby right?

If it all works out then I would look at making up a side by with rifled choke tubes to create a poor man's big bore double rifle but also with a simple change out of tubes it would handle birdshot or buckshot well too. What's not to like?

Not much innovative about my rifling machine and it is all built out of old scrap I had laying around. In fact one piece was made form a bolt I found laying by an old (like 100 years old) rail track. it was covered with heavy rust but was the right size to make a thrust washer out of.

Basically it follows the old style wooden rifling bench systems but I used a twisted square bar for a worm. The cutter head is wood as well, inletted for the cutter. I am having problems with the cutter working loose though so either my woodworking skills are lacking some or the wood I used is a bit soft. So far that has been the only problem and that is easy to fix.

I will do some more rifling to increase depth and play with the cutter head some then neaten the thing up a bit and take photos. Or if the mood strikes me I may just post what I've got crude as it is.

And no to bikerbeans! It would be much easier and probably cheaper to just buy a rifled barrel or an H&R Ultra Slugger if I wanted a fully rifled barrel. Even this little choke tube is WORK to make. It makes a guy respect the old timey gunsmiths that rifled full length muzzleloader barrels let me tell you!

Oh, I should add that I am making my own choke tube because I want wide deep grooves and slow round ball twist. My current twist is as close to 1:72" as I could gauge twisting the bar using a protractor. Actual round ball twist for 12 ga. is 1:110" though I have read that the Paradox guns (at least some) used faster twist but it was deep aggressive rifling unlike modern rifled choke tubes.

So that's all I've got for now.

I will post more when I've got something.

Longbow

[W.R.Buchanan]

LB: Earlier you commented on how much work it was to do one groove. I have had conversations with the guys at Krieger who use WWI vintage rifling machines to turn out some of the finest barrels known to man.

A typical barrel with grooves .004 deep requires 40 passes per groove. IE .0001 per pass. A four groove barrel would have a 160 passes and would take about 4 hours to complete,,, with a semi automated machine.

A manual machine will be much slower, but since you are not making long barrels and are also not running a production shop it will be more a labor of love and the satisfaction of the craft will be part of the reward. Getting the thing to shoot will be other other part. I have no doubt that it will work, and it will produce better results than a smooth bore. It may even rival a fully rifled barrel.

When I was 11 years old (1961) I got my first issue of Guns and Ammo Magazine. In that issue there was an article on an 8 Bore Evans Double Gun known as a Paradox. Evans made the more "inexpensive" guns more suited to being "working guns" for Africa. This one weighed between 16-18 lbs. These guns were used in the Ivory Trade and were fired literally hundreds of times in a day.( back then Men were really men!!! and ******* didn't show up for a hunt) The reason for the Paradox rifling system was so that the BP wouldn't foul the barrel like it would a fully rifled barrel.

Since I read that article only about 300 times I have retained much of what was said. The gun used Brass cartridge cases with a large charge of Black Powder. The boolits were 1250 gr, cast of pure lead, that's little over 2 3/4 OZ!. They resembled a SWC style boolit with a rounded nose section and one large grease groove which was in the middle of the two driving bands. They also had Round Ball loads for smaller game but the Conical Boolit was preferred form Elephants. We're talkin' serious "Knock Down Power" here!

Only the last 2" of the bores were rifled. thus the moniker "paradox" which was coined earlier by Holland & Holland who produced similar guns in 12 and 8 bore but to a much higher level of finish,,, and price. As did Westley Richards.

The Evans gun used an Underlever which rotated around the trigger guard (sideways) to open and close the barrels and exposed hammers. If I recall it was made in the late 1880's and was the last bastion of Black Powder guns made for Africa before the advent of Smokeless Powders.

The pictures of the sample groups for this gun are indelibly etched in my brain. They were 6 shot groups @ 50 yards being the normal range the gun would have been shot at) 3 from each barrel. There were 3ea. holes touching from the right barrel and about a 3" group 2" high and to the left from the left barrel.

The 1" dia holes in that target are as clear now as when I was 11. even then I knew this was big medicine.

What I have come to realize after 50 years is the size of the "Cajones" the guy who wrote the article must have had in order to shoot that cannon off a rest 6 times in a row!

I have another Cutts Compensator if you want it. I sent the other one to Alaskan Guy. I would have no problem sending one to you in Canada since I ship my Seat Riser kits there all the time with no problem. Nobody would know what it is anyway.

Randy

[longbow]

Randy:

I have made a few minor improvements to the rifling machine mainly because the darn cutter kept coming loose! ! have to think that my woodworking skills are not up to par regarding inletting for the cutter. It worked for the ODG's so why not for me?

So, I decided I would modify the cutting head by epoxying the cutter in place then and slicing off the bottom of the cutter head to make a "shoe".

This eliminates the tiny .2" x .5" paper shims and allows me to use man sized pieces of paper between the shoe and cutter head. More importantly, the cutter can't come loose. It seems like an obvious solution to a problem that my predecessors didn't have. In any case, it certainly seems easier to me. (I am a simple old man)

I will try this all out tomorrow then post photos of my "machine".

Laugh if you will but the the chunk of 3/4" pipe was rifled with the faulty version of this rifling machine and it doesn't look too bad.

All it really takes is to have a reliable pitch to turn that cutter... and some stamina!

Longbow

I really appreciate your post on the old Paradox system. I too have been fascinated for many years by this seemingly simple approach to the "do anything rifle/shotgun".

My intent is to rifle choke tubes to approx. 1:72" and see where that takes me. From an article I have from Ross Seyfried, apparently some Paradox guns ran rather fast twists of 1:36" or so. Much faster than a round ball or "square" slug requires. In any case, I figured that 1:72" was a good start.

Longbow

[MOA]

LB, won't the spin of projectile tighten the choke down so tight it might be very hard to unscrew later?

[longbow]

That is exactly why I am not using a "standard" screw in choke design. The Pachmyr Power-Pac style choke tube has a large shoulder on it. Mine will have a large shoulder to but up on and take the torque.

I have read several posts about standard choke tubes winding is so hard they had to be removed by a gunsmith and some comments about permanent bulges at the threads from torque of the tube.

Also, modern rifled choke tubes tend to run about 1:36" twist where I am running 1:72" so less torque from slower twist too.

Not sure if 1:72" is correct or not as I have read that Paradox guns had slow round ball twists which for 12 ga. run about 1:110" and I have an article by Ross Seyfried that states 1:36" or 1:38" in a gun he has. Since a 12 bore round ball twist runs around 1:110" that should work for a Paradox gun as well since they tended to shoot fairly stubby slugs.

I have read of some heavy slugs as well so maybe some guns were rifled faster for those but they would have to weigh well over 1000 grs. to need 1:36" twist I would think.

Longbow

[nekshot]

Very interesting indeed! You are doing awesome with this endeaver. David Price has a interesting groove design he shows on his website for barrels for his pivot action m\l. I often thought that would work in a shotgun for shot or ball. When I saw your photo I immediatly thought of his barrels.

[nekshot]

got to thinking about fact that paradox guns had the last 2 inches rifled, well whould not a rifled choke tube do or be about the same thing? I have a rifled winchoke laying here for a project and this might motivate me to get it going!

[longbow]

nekshot:

If you have a rifled choke tube you may as well give it a go with slugs. Some people have posted pretty good results using rifled choke tubes. However, there also seem to be some problems with choke tubes torquing so tight a gunsmith has to remove them.

Modern choke tubes are rifled with fast 1:35" or so twist and have shallow rifling. They are intended for sabot slugs to help stabilize and to assist in discarding the sabot.

The choke tube I am planning to make will have wide deep grooves of about 0.010"+ and slow twist of 1:72" which is actually fast for a 12 ga. round ball. 12 ga. round ball wants about 1:110" twist. So, 1:72" should be plenty fast yet not have the rapid angular acceleration/torque of the 1:35" choke tube.

In any case, if you have one try it out and report back. It just may work for you.

I did a little neatening up of the rifling machine and am ready to get back at it to finish the 3/4" pipe test piece. I will take some photos of my machine such as it is. Not fancy but it is working well.

Longbow

[cwheel]

Interesting post indeed. I came by a 3' tube of 4140 DOM tubing for my next muzzle loading cannon project. Tube is 5"OD with a bore of 1 3/8" rough bore. Can picture the finished bore around 1 1/2" after the ream job. Would be fun to try to rifle the next one, see if it shoots more accurately. Can imagine this size could take a few more passes though the bore, still would be fun to try. Those making the rifling machines, be sure and post pics, be interested in cutter forms and the setups, I need to cut 36" long + a little. If I could come by a old Bofors 40mm barrel section, would be better still. In these times, think it's unlikely I'm going to find breach half of a Bofors barrel laying around in good enough condition to use for this, more likely that hunk of 4140 is going to get cut.
Chris

[DougGuy]

My only experience in shooting buckshot through a rifled barrel was a surprise. I use the Mossberg rifled slug barrel with plain old Foster slugs for deer, and it works plenty well, it will cloverleaf a playing card at 100yds which is way more than enough for hunting bambi.

The one round of 00 buck I fired through it was about 20yds from a 4x8 plywood backstop we staple targets on, and for the life of me there was not one single pellet hole to be found on that sheet of plywood. Could it have spun so hard as to throw the shot out sideways far enough to miss a whole sheet of plywood at that distance?

[Faret]

The one round of 00 buck I fired through it was about 20yds from a 4x8 plywood backstop we staple targets on, and for the life of me there was not one single pellet hole to be found on that sheet of plywood. Could it have spun so hard as to throw the shot out sideways far enough to miss a whole sheet of plywood at that distance?

[longbow]

Well, the Paradox guns were supposed to handle birdshot as well as slugs and so they apparently did. Not too sure about buckshot though. Buckshot through a 1:35" twist barrel would be spinning the shot column pretty fast so maybe it opened up that fast. Makes more sense than just the rifling roughing up the buckshot. Make one wonder anyway.

That would be another reason for a screw in choke tube... assuming this all turns out and works. The rifling machine is all back together now an dI did a little more work tonight. I will likely shim another time or two then remove the pipe to see how the rifling is coming. I will take photos when I do that.

Longbow