Defense loads, food for thought

[trucker76]

I have noticed in some threads people mentioning about their defense loads. Now I am not an expert. Massad Ayoob is. For those that have never heard of him, he has been published in many magazines as well as having several books including the gun digest guide to concealed carry. He was a police officer and is considered an expert witness and has appeared many times in court for police and civilian cases in that capacity.

In his guide to concealed carry he addresses handloads for defensive carry as a very bad idea for a few reasons. Reason number 1, in a self defense carry shooting you are not disputing you shot the other person, but you have to prove it was in self defense. Crime labs use ballistics from factory ammo only. So say for instance you and an attacker were struggling, close up, and you managed to get the gun to his head and shoot him, but the angle was from the back of his head. The crime lab will test powder residue and will use factory ammo as a baseline. They will not use other ammo left in the gun and they will not use ammo from your home. Anything you made is considered tampered with. So they test the factory ammo and based on that they find that the gun wasn't inches away, but a few feet away making it look you shot an attacker in the back of the head as they were fleeing. That is just a rough outline of the case he cited in the book.

Also something to think about is the prosecution, civil and criminal. By using your own handloaded ammo and specially your own cast bullets it is possible for the prosecution to say that factory ammo wasn't good enough for you. That you had to make your own "special" killer ammunition and specifically set out to kill anyone you shot, that could be construed as premeditation.

In all the recommendation was use what the police use. I know speer gold dot is a good defensive load and is used by police. So should I ever need to use my weapon in self defense I am covered in that the lab can use any box of ammo I used off the shelf and get the same result in testing. And that since I was using the same ammo as law enforcement they can't get me for using "super bullets".

Just something to think about. The book is a very good read as are Massad's other works.

[jmort]

Never ever, has there been a case where someone was convicted of a crime for using reloads in the history of the United States. A man, Mr. Fish was convicted of a crime and evidence was introduced that he used a powerful 10mm and had advanced firearms training and had lots of guns and ammunition.
Mr. Fish had to appeal and get a new trial. So using this logic, don't use a 10mm or get advanced firearms training or have lots of guns and ammunition as we know for sure that can get you in trouble. Listen to Ayboob all you want, I will stick with what is real.

[Love Life]

My eyes!!!

[1Shirt]

I believe there was a thread someplace that said that there has never been a case where prosecution has been able to use the hand load factor. However, I am about convinced that for home protection, particularly for a woman it is hard to bead a short bbl, double action 38S, with soft cast WC bullets, loaded to listed max vols. 5-6 clean .358 holes in a perp from inside of household ranges of probably less than 50-20 feet would do the trick I think. Just my opinion!
1shirt!

[EMC45]

This again? Oh boy.......

[jmort]

Ayboobs's main case is a guy who killed his girlfriend and he said she committed suicide. Liar. The judge would not allow evidence from the defense on the reloads as the judge ruled it was unreliable evidence. Moral of that story, is don't kill your girlfriend. BTW, I believe the judge made the wrong decision on the admissibility of the defense evidence, but that was a subjective decision by the judge. If only the killer had Judge Ito.

[btroj]

Man, this hasn't been mentioned in a few years here.

This is theory, not reality. Show me multiple cases where this actually happened and I might buy it. If a shoot is good it is good.

[jmort]

Dead Horse. BTW, Ayboob sells insurance to protect you in a self-defense shooting.

[btroj]

Did someone use reloads to kill Doe Run?

[jmort]

I was not going to play the Doe Run card. You just had to go there.

[BruceB]

I use strictly commercial loads in my defense guns.

I don't worry about being CONVICTED because of my possible use of handloads. The problem lies in the jury room. I have served on juries, and strange things can happen behind those closed doors.

If a prosecutor can create an erroneous IMPRESSION about the defendant in the minds of the jurors, that impression can easily sway a verdict. If he paints the defendant as a kill-crazy jungle nut, brewing "special" ammunition in his basement to murder his neighbors, what weight will that carry with the un-knowing jurors?

I choose to NOT allow the prosecutor that opportunity, simply by using good factory ammunition.

It's a no-brainer.... REDUCE THE POTENTIAL RISKS as much as possible. Many factors in a shooting situation are beyond our control, but choice of ammunition IS a controllable factor.

[jmort]

Agree, look what happened to Mr. Fish and his "factory" 10mm ammunition?

[338RemUltraMag]

If any court gets down to "you used reloads" you were guilty from the start, get the needle and thread to sew up your butt, you are going to prison.

If you are in a justified shooting you will not normally (in my state) see a court room, first the leade investigator will say it was justified, then the DA will look it over, then you are good to go. If you see the inside of a court room, the shooting was QUESTIONABLE, remember if the DA drags you to court it means the evidence of self defense was NOT strong enough to rule it a black and white self defense shooting

Rant off

[Outpost75]

We should all carry .32 autos, because if you carry a .45 you were planning for a fight?

[theperfessor]

I've always that MA was an entertaining writer, but he has his own hot button topics. I load up with what performs best in the gun I'm carrying at the time. No verifiable history of handloads being legal problem in self defense shootings. Skepticism abounds in my mind!

[dragon813gt]

Let's be clear that just because someone's thoughts are in print that doesn't make them an expert. Everyone knows that you have to have a microphone in front of you to be an expert. Well I guess you could be on the radio or TV and that makes you an expert. And I guess having an Internet blog makes you an expert. Should I keep going?

[popper]

IMHO the only legal problem is if my kin have to sue the manufacturer if it doesn't go bang when it should. I can maintain my QC on my reloads.

[Piedmont]

We should all carry .32 autos, because if you carry a .45 you were planning for a fight?

I always wondered why you were so stuck on those pea shooters.

[fredj338]

I personally don't see the value of loading my own SD loads. In most instances, the better bullets are not available to the reloader anyway & you are not going to improve on the performance in most instances. You will never go to jail for using reloaded ammo. You will be sued in civil court & handloads are not going to help you there.

[osteodoc08]

Wasnt there a guy who was recently strung up in DC for having a sabot (for BP rifle) and they deemed it ammunition? I dont trust any lawyers or judges to act in good faith anymore. Granted, if it is a justifiable shooting there *shouldn't* be any issues. By using factory ammo, it is just one less headache to have to deal with should I find myself in front of a Jury. But yeah, dont believe everything you read, even if it is from Massad Ayoob.