Defense loads, food for thought

[Texantothecore]

I have.

An enlightening experience, to say the least. All the ego driven BS falls away and it is just you, the perp, your rifle or pistol and the rounds you built carefully.

[jimr]

I always found it interesting that it is generally thought that we shouldn't use reloads for self defense because the jury might consider them to deadly when we readily use factory ammo that is advertised to be as deadly and damage causing as possible. All the way up to being zombie killer ammo in some cases. In the case of factory ammo it would seem the case could also be made that the most deadly ammo was sought out.

Mike

Exactly my thinking

[Love Life]

Ya'll have what? Pulled a gun on a person or pulled a gun on a person and smoked that person and dealt with the fall out? Lets be a little specific here.

[TXGunNut]

Long ago in a land not far from here I carried handloads in a custom Colt because they were the best ammo and weapon I could find...at the time. Guns and ammo have both improved greatly since then, I carry carefully chosen and tested factory ammo in a (mostly) stock weapon.
MA is a good man, articulate and respected in his field. He has reasons for the opinions and thoughts he expresses, I'll leave it at that. I happen to know the threshold of "expert witness" is probably lower than most folks realize, it generally means you know more about the subject at hand than anyone else in the courtroom which isn't too hard to imagine on this subject.

[Whitespider]

Seriously though, the only reason I carry a gun in social places is because it is the only weapon big brother allows me to legally carry to defend myself and others. How screwed is that?

That sucks...
Here in Iowa we don't have CCW permits, we have a "Permit to Carry Weapons"... that permit allows me to carry any legal-to-own weapon(s), of any sort, openly or concealed (or both), anywhere in the State of Iowa (except a school or Federal Courthouse). No local ordinance can preempt the carrying of firearms, but may preempt certain other things (such as the allowable length of edged weapons). A business owner may post a sign stating "No Firearms Allowed" if they choose, but it ain't a "weapons" offense if I ignore it, it's simple misdemeanor trespassing... and, the misdemeanor charge only applies if I've been asked to leave and refuse‼

As far as what I load my firearms with... well...
For nearly every handgun I have just one load that's been carefully tailored for that firearm, it's been regulated to hit where the sights are looking at whatever ranges I deem purpose-able, and every one is a handloaded cast lead-alloy load...

Heaven forbid I ever need to use any of them for defense/protection from human attack (and odds are overwhelming I never will)... but the last thing I'd be concerned with is how some shyster would portray it in a court of law. If I'm justified in the use of it... I'm justified in the use of it and nothing else matters... it don't get any more simple than that.
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[jonp]

Ya'll have what? Pulled a gun on a person or pulled a gun on a person and smoked that person and dealt with the fall out? Lets be a little specific here.

Pulled a firearm and Thank God didn't have to pull the trigger. The firearm alone was enough to stop the threatened action.

[Texantothecore]

I was outside my farmhouse with the dog when there was a flash from the driveway, perhaps 100 feet. I also spotted movement in the dark over a distance of 10 feet or so. I went into the house, loaded the rifle, illuminated my preplanned shooting lanes, masked my position, called911 and waited for three or so people to break in the front door. The police arrived 58 minutes later. No shots were fired and the ne'er do wells left at some point.

Things I learned:
I work very quickly and efficiently when under duress and make good decisions.

I am a disciplined shooter. In other words, if it had been some boyscouts looking to get a glass of water, it would have ended well.

In many situations in the dark you will not know whether the perp is armed with a gun.

I am quite pleased with my self defense armament and see no reason to upgrade to a higher tech, plastic fantastic whiz bang solution.

I have complete faith in my reloads.

[dondiego]

58 minutes though.

[Texantothecore]

58 minutes though.

Yup. That was not a typo. I was truly alone. The nearest armed neighbor was two miles away.

[Rick Hodges]

I personally used a handgun to defend myself and another, personally investigated 200-400 shootings as an officer in charge of the case while in the Detective Bureau, and policed perhaps another 1200 or so shootings. I have testified in circuit court as an "expert" in firearms. I have never seen or heard where ammunition type (factory, reloads, HP, etc) was ever an issue in any case over a 31 year career in L.E. We did have one case where we were trying to ID a shooter due to the ammo used being a rare lot of Federal factory 380 auto that used RWS projectiles. We were canvassing gunshops to see if anyone carried that lot of ammo and who might have purchased it.

[Piedmont]

I personally used a handgun to defend myself and another, personally investigated 200-400 shootings as an officer in charge of the case while in the Detective Bureau, and policed perhaps another 1200 or so shootings. I have testified in circuit court as an "expert" in firearms. I have never seen or heard where ammunition type (factory, reloads, HP, etc) was ever an issue in any case over a 31 year career in L.E. We did have one case where we were trying to ID a shooter due to the ammo used being a rare lot of Federal factory 380 auto that used RWS projectiles. We were canvassing gunshops to see if anyone carried that lot of ammo and who might have purchased it.

In your professional position, would you have been made aware if ammo issues were brought up in a civil case in those shootings? It seems to me the danger is in a civil suit.

[Whitespider]

It seems to me the danger is in a civil suit.

I don't pretend to know about every state... but here, if the use of deadly force is justified/legal you cannot be sued in civil court. Basically, if you're right-you're right and that's the end of it... if you're wrong-you're wrong and there ain't no good end.
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[Rick Hodges]

In your professional position, would you have been made aware if ammo issues were brought up in a civil case in those shootings? It seems to me the danger is in a civil suit.

Let me start by saying I have been retired for almost 15 years. My experience is dated. I do keep in touch with others who are still in the same business. I would have known in the cases where I was the officer in charge as a Detective (usually I would have been called in a civil case) but not in the others. Believe it or not most shootings do not result in law suits. If the attorneys can't find someone with deep pockets it is not worth their time and effort. In fact most shootings are not self defense.

Reloaded ammo was not an issue in my shooting, nor in any other case I testified in civil or criminal. (perhaps a dozen civil cases in shooting I was involved in or investigated) I can assure you that an attorney will throw out anything he can in the hopes that it might stick in the minds of a jury including your participation in violent "blood sports" (hunting), being a card carrying member of the "evil gun culture" (NRA membership), owning a "massive arsenal" (more than 3 guns and 6 boxes of ammo) to name a few. NRA membership has come up for me on the stand. However; do you actually think that just because an attorney tries those tactics we should forgo hunting, or membership in the NRA, or using reloaded ammo? I think not! The issue is not the type of ammunition but the justification and circumstances surrounding the shooting.

I will repeat: the only place I have heard where reloaded ammo "may" be an issue is in certain magazines who depend heavily on the "Tactical self defense" ammo advertising and on internet forums. I really want someone to point out a criminal or civil case where the outcome hinged on the use of reloaded ammo as a determining factor.

[ksfowler166]

I don't pretend to know about every state... but here, if the use of deadly force is justified/legal you cannot be sued in civil court. Basically, if you're right-you're right and that's the end of it... if you're wrong-you're wrong and there ain't no good end.

Exactly the same here in Kansas, if you right no need to fear a civil suit. If your wrong well you have bigger things to worry about than a civil suit.

[22 rifle]

i see this said a lot but there was a guy who went to prison after his girlfriend killed herself with a 38 revolver that belonged to him.he had loaded some lower powered rounds for her before for home protection because she was recoil sensitive.the court refused to use the remaining reloads for testing because it would be "destroying evidence".after testing with factory ammo they claimed he was several feet behind her and shot her with the gun himself.the guy ended up getting a long prison sentence for a murder rap.

[Blood Trail]

Y'all move to Texas! U don't have to worry about it.

[starmac]

I keep trying to remember what kind of ammo Zimmerman used. I know it was reported in the news at least a hundred times, christ even the fricken president weighed in on the case, and I just can't remember what he used.

[Mik]

Rick is right on.

The attorney in court trying to prove you guilty of murder will use anything to make you look like a bad man. If you've taken formal weapons and self defense training, the attorney will try to make it look like you could have avoided the shoot but couldn't resist the opportunity to put your training to use.

If you have several guns, the attorney will paint you as a person who has been waiting all of his life for a chance to use one of them.

That doesn't mean you shouldn't learn to protect yourself or enjoy your guns. But it may come up. To a jury, perception is reality.

[M-Tecs]

Second thread running on this issue here http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...ighlight=Ayoob

I carry what I want and I don't worry about the Ayoob BS myth.

[Texantothecore]

i see this said a lot but there was a guy who went to prison after his girlfriend killed herself with a 38 revolver that belonged to him.he had loaded some lower powered rounds for her before for home protection because she was recoil sensitive.the court refused to use the remaining reloads for testing because it would be "destroying evidence".after testing with factory ammo they claimed he was several feet behind her and shot her with the gun himself.the guy ended up getting a long prison sentence for a murder rap.

It was clear to me that the man shot his wife. In order for the wound to have no powder burn or powder residue she would had to hold the pistol about 2 feet from her head. The guy was guilty and is now serving time.