Duplexing WC860

[madsenshooter]

Not much of a difference in barrel length, except for the jump from 18 to 22. More consistent in the 32" though, perhaps finally burning it all. So why you measuring temp so far from the muzzle? Shooting from a heated indoor spot? Just joking, of course. I had that luxury at my club in IN though. LOL!

[cga]

Shooting from a heated indoor spot?

As a matter of fact, I shoot from a heated basement in the winter. But the phone rang, and I left the ammo sitting there with the window open and the cold air blowing on them for about 30 minutes. It's just a few steps from the loading bench to the shooting bench. Kinda' handy. In the summer, I shoot off my deck, sometimes.

[madsenshooter]

Nice view! Miss my M1A, had to sell it for college money back in the 90s, later found out about the Devine, TX made M1As and it was one of them, serial number around 1500.

[cga]

Never owned a Devine rifle. But I do know they are highly sought after. Sad you had to let yours go.
The nearest shooting range is a twenty minute drive, and a 200 yard range. Here I can shoot out to 350.

[cga]

Tried 45.0g. of IMR5010 with 4.0g. of N100, Starline nickle plated brass / CCI 200 / RCBS 45/405/fn. Used a single layer of tissue paper over the booster charge, cut to size with the sharpened mouth of a 45-70 case.
Marlin 1895 22''barrel, measured ten feet from the muzzle.

1 - 1309 fps
2 - 1311 ''
3 - 1331 ''
4 - 1316 ''
5 - 1316 ''

No un-burnt powder left in the barrel.

[madsenshooter]

I got out today with the loads listed back in post #35. Wish I could tell you which of the two was most accurate, but a 50gr total charge, vs the 38-41gr other loads I was shooting, had me shooting over top of the target. At least 18" higher and I already had the sight all the way down and was using a .1" higher front blade. More recoil than what I care to deal with too. Only good thing I can say is they weren't over pressure whereas the 38-40.5gr charges of DP85 I shot were. I'd use a filler and a lower 860 charge, but, I've already ringed one Krag barrel, and when shooting with fillers with the wind in my face I've felt the grit hitting me in the eyes. So that wouldn't be good on a highpower firing line. That's it, I'll use shot buffer and blind the competition!

[BruceB]

G'day, gents.

Over at my former residence, 100 miles away, I have 16 pounds of 867. Also, the last time I counted (a couple years beck, now) there were 39 TYPES of powder in my shop. Curmudgeon and I hope to get over there in the next short while with a U-Haul truck, and transfer all my "stuff" here to Reno.

I just re-read this whole thread, and I have a question for anyone in-the-know in this regard:

There is no apparent reference to the old 1873 Trapdoor, one of which has just come to live with me as of last weekend. Condition of my new rifle is excellent in all regards.

I see .45-70 loads in this thread that generate 1300 fps +/- with 405-grain bullets and the SLOOOOW powders, which are 1873 ballistics. This gives rise to my question of the moment:

"Do any of you have an opinion on the safety of my lovely "new" M1884 with these low-intensity loads?"

It does seem to me that the pressures needed to drive that 400-grain bullet at just 1300 fps would be fairly low...... but "blackpowder low"? I have no desire to overstress this neat old rifle, so .... what do y'all think?

It WOULD be nice to have a cleaner option than Holy Black, but I knew it was a blackpowder rifle when I bought it. That indicates that I was prepared for whatever conditions the old fuel would impose... and I am.

What say Ye?

[DGNY]

Regarding the 45-70, Ken Waters spoke to H-4831 in Pet Loads, for both cast and j-bullets; but I saw nothing for other even slower powders.

Within his parameters, I have tried 52 gr H-4831 under a store-bought cast 405gr in my trapdoor, just to experiment, but lots of residue, so never pursued it further. [Mr. Waters even suggested a patch through the bore after each shot, to avoid abrasions on softer lead bullets.]

Regards,

Dyson

[9.3X62AL]

Bruce--I have fired 20 of the 6.0 x 4198/48.0 x 860/405 grain Lee bullet assemblies in a Bubba Trapdoor I have at mi casa. No objections were noted. I have run at least 700 of these loads through My Ruger #1, and the cases have never shown any untoward expansion. Fired cases usually slip back into the chamber and seat to within 1/8" of flush fit on gravity alone. I suspect there isn't much pressure getting generated, but can't prove that in any way.

[bruce drake]

Got an 8# jug of WC-860 today to finally start working with developing loads for 8mm, 7mm, 30-06, 8mm-06 and a 358 Win in a few months.

Bruce

[MUSTANG]

Got an 8# jug of WC-860 today to finally start working with developing loads for 8mm, 7mm, 30-06, 8mm-06 and a 358 Win in a few months.

Bruce

Bruce:

Given that your going to start developing loads in the colder part of the year, you may want to capture data on successful loads developed (speculating that your air temps will range from 20 to 50 Fahrenheit); then do a comparison with the same loads in the spring (once again speculating that your air temps will range from 40 to 75 Fahrenheit), then again in the summer when your in the 90's.

My thesis is that there may be velocity swings caused due to potential temperature sensitivity of the older 50BMG/Vulcan powders. General Dynamics Ordnance and Tactical Systems (DOD Contractor for St Marks Powder Production in Florida) has upgraded 5.56 and 7.62 powder mixtures to address temperature induced velocity variations for use in Afhganistan and Iraq. Do not know if they have done so for 50BMG and Vulcan, but one can be assured the powders available as surplus will be old blends for the foreseaable future.

[bruce drake]

Thanks Mustang for the hint. I'm praying that I get to start shooting rifle again in January though it might be limited recoil at best with real recoil cleared for sometime this fall.

[cowboybart]

Bruce, I look forward to your reports. are you going to be using heavy cast or J boolits??

[rbuck351]

I have been using H5010 with different booster charges in a 358N and a 416Rem with cast boolits. I started with a somewhat compressed load of 5010 weighed it and checked velocity and for pressure signs. Lots of trash left in barrel, low velocity and very rounded primers. I then dropped the 5010 by 3 grs and added 3 grs of red dot over the primer. This cleaned the burn some and added some velocity but still very low pressure. Added 2 more grs of red dot and dropped 2 grs of 5010. I stopped at about 8-9grs of red dot with the burn cleaning up nicely and the velocities about 2200. Primers were just starting to fill out but still rounded. I believe one could continue using jacketed bullets and maybe get velocities up around normal jacketed bullet velocities but I haven't tried it. I also tried AA9 with very similar results. I have been meaning to try mixing the powder to see if it really makes a difference whether the fast powder is against the primer or if it will do the same thing mixed with the 5010. Too many projects and not enough time. The loads with 9grs of either red dot or AA9 worked rather well. I'm surprised the nay sayers haven't jumped in yet as they are usually quick to say how dangerous this is.

[cowboybart]

Nice choice of cartridges rbuck! When I get the 461 tasks done that are in front of duplex experimenting, I am going to work toward duplicating standard vels with J-words. I want to find out the combo that will make a 6.5-06 140gr sing with WC860 or 5010. I'll also want combinations for 257 Roberts, 300 Savage, 300 Wby and 358 Norma, all with heavy J-words, at or near standard velocity. This might even work in my 6/284.

This will make my powder buying easier. Instead of stocking 4350, 4831,4064, Hunter, Big Game, RL-19, RL-10... I can just go with WC860 and Bullseye/Green Dot.

[Nobade]

Be careful trying duplex loading with 860 in the 6.5-06. You will likely achieve nearly full pressure just by using the powder by itself. You certainly would if you use WC857. The others could be duplexed, but watch out in the 300 Wby as well, it'll be touchy.

I also suggest a kicker powder a bit slower then Green Dot or Bullseye. Something from 2400 to IMR4198 and anything in between is a lot kinder to your brass and allows more latitude for fine tuning before causing problems with your cases.

-Nobade

[cowboybart]

OK, I have some 1680 that I can use. I was thinking that with the 300 Wby I may not need any kicker with 200+ gr bullets. If I go down to 165, then maybe. I'll tread lightly with the 6.5-06.
A case full of 860 is very accurate in a 6.5 Bower (307 case necked down/improved), but it does leave unburned powder in the barrel. I never chrono-ed it and even if I did I would have very little to compare it to.

[abqcaster]

Has anybody tried duplexing (or even plain) wc860 in .357 magnum? I get a general sense from what I've read here and elsewhere that it may be possible, especially in a rifle. so much so I'm willing to try it my self, but am loathe to reinvent the wheel if someone here has already done it, and possibly not spoken up. I have looked around and only seen it used in 357 max, which is a different beast in that it uses rifle primers, but not all that different it seems. or heck lets just opine on it for "fun" like we do with every other topic.
-ABQ

[9.3X62AL]

Not me--not yet.

I re-read this thread's content with Abq's post in mind, and came up with an idea. How about this? Given the bore trash seen in my 45/70s' barrels after shooting homogenous loads of WC-860, and the damage done to chronograph screens 10 feet from rifle muzzles......place enough WC-860 into a 357 Magnum case to almost fill it, leaving only enough space to seat a sized-down .375" roundball securely, with a hint of case mouth exposed above the seated ball. One drop of LLA at the case mouth seam/ball interface. CCI 550 primer. One (1) each, rattlesnake buck-and-ball load.

Kids--don't try this at home.

[Kestrel4k]

Has anybody tried duplexing (or even plain) wc860 in .357 magnum?.

Hmm, now you've got me interested. I've been shooting many hundreds of .357 & .44 Mag rifle just this year, and have on hand 8 lbs of WC852 that is of no use to me ...