Duplexing WC860

[Maximumbob54]

I was going to ask about using Trail Boss as the booster but I don't think that one puts up with any compressed loads at all. I may be wrong but I would swear I've read it pressure spikes at the slightest compression. But I bet that flat donut design of that powder would work great.

[alamogunr]

Great thread! I might get to start using the 4 jugs of WC860 that I bought back when it first came on the market. The Swede and the .25-06 ought to be good candidates for this.

[offshore44]

Good thread, it gives me an idea. Powder supplies being what they are. I've got three rifles that might work with this type of loading. Paper patched 458 winmag, 8mm and 308. Gotta do some more research on this duplex loading thing... Times are tough when both money and powder supplies are tight.

[curator]

Offshore44,

Keep us informed of your experiments with the 458WinMag. This would speak to the .45-70,.45-90, and the .458WinMag shooters who want to use cast boolits and milsurp powder. I have used 60 grains of WC860 and a 450 grain .462 LBT-LFN PB with good results but was plagued with the aforementioned unburned powder in bore and chamber. I haven't had time to try duplexing on this cartridge as of yet.

[madsenshooter]

Not to hijack, but... Since a major concern with duplexing is powder migration, has anyone tried a layer of toilet tissue over the kicker charge to prevent said migration?
Bill

I don't think migration will be a problem if you're using a slightly compressed load, unless you use a kicker that has some really fine grains.

[cowboybart]

I need an education on this topic. I have 6 kegs of WC860 (I'd like to save 3 or 4 for the 50 BMG), and would like to use it in other rounds. In 95% of the stuff that I will be shooting, I want to use j-werd bullets. Is that an issue?? I can use cast in 7-30 Waters, 35 Rem, 356 Win and 375 JDJ. All other cals ( 308 family, 30-06 family and standard belted mag family), I will be using j-werd bullets.
By "shotgun powder", which of these qualify: Green Dot, Blue Dot, Bullseye, Win 231, Power Pistol, Scot 1500, Win 630??

Sorry for the basic questions but I am ignorant on this topic.

[madsenshooter]

To use it for J words, you're likely going to have work up, like I said, at some point the 860 is going to burn at the 50,000+psi it was designed to burn at. Mustang started working on finding that point, then something else came up. Only powders on your list I'm sure are shotgun are green dot and blue dot, with green dot being the faster of the two. Scot 1500 is about the same burn rate as blue dot and was a shotgun/pistol powder I believe.

[offshore44]

Offshore44,

Keep us informed of your experiments with the 458WinMag. This would speak to the .45-70,.45-90, and the .458WinMag shooters who want to use cast boolits and milsurp powder. I have used 60 grains of WC860 and a 450 grain .462 LBT-LFN PB with good results but was plagued with the aforementioned unburned powder in bore and chamber. I haven't had time to try duplexing on this cartridge as of yet.

Will do. It may be some weeks before I get to it though, so please be patient. I've got an StG-58 project to finish up first, a Yugo 24/47 project on deck and now this new project in the works. The good news is that I think I saw a 1# can of H50 BMG tucked back in a corner at a store in town. If that works out, I can see the Big Brown Truck hauling some surplus powder my way. Whoo-hooo! On the firing line again! It would sure beat trying to make red or white powder to keep shooting.

[9.3X62AL]

I've run WC-860 in its "unduplexed" homogenous form in 6.5 x 55 with 140 grain bullets (Hornady #2630), and got 2475 FPS from my Ruger 77R's 22" barrel. Bore trash was negligible, and accuracy was first-rate. Load was slightly compressed 55.0 grains, lit by Fed 215 primer.

In 30-06, I loaded 60.0 grains "unduplexed" under the Lee 200 grain cast bullet, Fed 215 primer. Velocity was 2050-2100 FPS, recoil was memorable, and accuracy was decent. Again, negligible bore trash. This Lee 200 grainer really shoots in my 30-06 rifles (3 so far, 1500-2100 FPS).

In 45-70, I have settled on a pleasant and accurate duplexed load......6.0 grains of IMR 4198, then 48.0 grains of WC-860, and the Lee 405 grain bullet giving slight compression (1/16"). Fed 215 primers. This garners 1300 FPS from the Ruger #1 and the Marlin 95, leaves behind no bore trash, and can be fired all day and with good accuracy. 1873 ballistics, basically.

[madsenshooter]

I've run WC-860 in its "unduplexed" homogenous form in 6.5 x 55 with 140 grain bullets (Hornady #2630), and got 2475 FPS from my Ruger 77R's 22" barrel. Bore trash was negligible, and accuracy was first-rate. Load was slightly compressed 55.0 grains, lit by Fed 215 primer.

This is what I was referring to when I said overbore cartridges wouldn't need much kicker, if any. Especially with the increased pressures generated by jacketed. Recoil was memorable. Got to agree with that, I've loaded a small kicker under a caseful of 860 and a 200gr cast bullet in the 7.5x55, which has about the same capacity as the 06 once blown out. The gas blast really brings the front of the rifle up out of the rest! Krags, with 10gr less capacity and a 30" barrel don't seem as bad.

[rupe01]

I bought 6 kegs (Wideners deducted the haz-mat fee with 6+) of WC872 (very similar to WC860) about a year ago specifically for duplex loads and have just started experimenting with it in a Mosin Nagant 7.62x54R. I checked that a full case of WC872 left unburned grains, and sure enough it did, although it was very accurate. Then i tried 7gr of IMR4227 as a kicker and 49gr WC872 with remaining case volume filled with Cream of Wheat. The unburned grains went away and the load stayed very accurate! I think i worked out that my powder cost was 3 cents, which definitely makes me smile and beats using surplus ammo by a mile! This was using my own gas-checked cast bullets.

[9.3X62AL]

The economy of the WC-860/867/872 fuels was its principal attribute. My first 8# flasks of the 860 ran me a whopping $3.50 per lb., IIRC. It can be adapted to a number of "venues" its developers likely didn't envision, but note that I used uber-hot primers (Fed 215) and heavy-for-caliber bullets to get the burning churning in the Swede and the '06. The 45-70 required ALL of the voodoo--hot primers, medium-fast rifle powder as a kicker, and heavy-for-caliber bullets. I even tried the recipe in the 45-70 single-shot and the Lyman Mastodon Flattener Bullet (#462560). No bore trash, but those 1-1/4 oz. slugs departing at 1500 FPS definitely let you know that the primers functioned in that 7-1/4# Ruger #1. Exhilarating, Charles Askins used to call it. Perhaps a little too much of a good thing.

[cga]

I thought I would chronograph one load of 50g. WC860 with a booster charge of 4g. N100, and compare it to my standard load.

Test rifle was a s/s un-ported Guide gun / Starline nickle plated brass / CCI 200 / RCBS 45/405/fn

Temp. 71 degrees / ten feet from the muzzle.

1 - 1347 fps.
2 - 1339 "
3 - 1350 "
4 - 1349 "
5 - 1360 "

My standard load is 25g. of 2400, with the old s/s Win. magnum primer.
Same rifle, brass and bullet.

1 - 1431 fps.
2 - 1428 "
3 - 1446 "
4 - 1425 "
5 - 1458 "


When time permits, I'll try some IMR5010 with N110 through the chronograph.

[Freightman]

I have used the 860 in my 45/70's and 30-06 the 45/70's duplexed with 4895-3031- ect with good results and the 06 iI used it straight with a 200gr Lee boolit 60-63 gr the 60 is more accurate. Have also used 5010 duplexed with good results in the 45/70 and also straight in the 06 42 gr is about all that will go into a 06 case and gives right at 1800fps and very accurate. I am out of 5010 now so need some more .

[madsenshooter]

I've got a little accuracy comparison to run loaded up. 7gr of BlueDot/43gr of 860 vs 4.2gr of powder pulled from 22RF/45.8gr of 860. I think the faster powder will be better, guess I'll see sometime this week when it warms up again. These are Krag loads, topped with a hard cast 316365 bullet that weighs 203gr. I don't have access to a chronograph anymore, bummer. The 7gr of BD ought to be about max, 9 gave me some pretty flat primers.

[curator]

Running WC860 loads past my original Chrony gave proof to the suggestion that a good quantity of powder was not being burned in the barrel. At 10 feet the data screen was sandblasted into uselessness. Moving the new Chrony back to 15 from the muzzle helped but there were still small craters in the shield I had made to protect the read out. I now "armor" the read-out screen with Lexan, which covers the electric "eyes" as well. This reduces the number of error messages and keeps the unburned powder out of the Chronograph innards.

[madsenshooter]

Hmm, maybe I was the one responsible for causing the chronograph at my N. Indiana club to go wacky from time to time! At one time, I was getting readings when the guys at the other end of the bench shot! They were 30-40ft away from the screens. That's just one example of wacky, I often got error msgs when shooting 860 though. Now I know why! I found from digging around that the powder in 22LR burns about Bullseye rate, that ought to be fast enough to simulate a larger primer. Charges were very consistent 1.3gr.

[alamogunr]

If that(.22 LR powder=BE) is the case, using Bullseye over the primer and under WC860 would be the most economical way to go. Especially with the cost of .22's.

[madsenshooter]

True, but I'd likely have trouble finding the Bullseye right now. Wasn't loading many, just 5 trial rounds. So 15 22lr were sacrificed. Could have been 15 squirrels in the freezer come fall!

[cga]

Chronographed a few more loads of 50.0g. WC860 with a booster charge of 4.0g. N100 in different rifles.
Starline nickle plated brass / CCI 200 / RCBS 45/405/fn

The results from the 18'' Guide gun (post #33) were

Temp. 71 degrees / ten feet from the muzzle.

1 - 1347 fps.
2 - 1339 "
3 - 1350 "
4 - 1349 "
5 - 1360 "

Today the temp. was 30 degrees, measured 10' from the muzzle.

Marlin 1895 22'' barrel

1 - 1431 fps.
2 - 1401 "
3 - 1417 "
4 - 1411 "
5 - 1412 "

Marlin 1895 26'' Cowboy

1 - 1427 fps.
2 - 1423 "
3 - 1402 "
4 - 1379 "
5 - 1403 "

Buffalo Classic 32'' barrel

1 - 1432 fps.
2 - 1417 "
3 - 1424 "
4 - 1430 "
5 - 1424 "