Plating better/easier than coating?

[wrinkles]

The video I posted has a better solution. No need to hang the bullets for plating. Just dump the in a barrel and let them tumble for a while.

[MGnoob]

Hi everyone, i just wanted to update the thread. After i started using the copper brightener i was having alot of issue. Most involving burning, poor adheasion, contamination of the solution.
Burning is cause buy plating too many parts in to small of a unit preventing tumbling, my solution was to keep it below 600 9mm and 800 .223, a better solutoon was to make a drum tumbler that oscillated eccentrically.Contamination cause by rinsing in tap water, and any failed plating attempts were resolved by letting the solution settle. skimming off all the clean liquid and dumping off the scum, lead and iron. And poor adhesion was resolved by preheating the solution to 120 and stirring untill the solution won't hold anymore copper sulfate.

The attached photo shows the final product rdy to shoot. the ones in the middle are dull from not using brightner. Also sizing involved alot of experimenting, as you can see by the middle ones, you can see where they where sized. By polishing the projectiles first they end up looking perfect after sizing.

http://s1339.photobucket.com/user/MG...tml?sort=3&o=0

[Idz]

Those look pretty impressive (although a bit out of focus). Any idea how thick and tough the plating is? Are you going to publish a cookbook for us lazy folks who don't want to go through all the experimentation? I heard one trick volume platers use is to mix a bunch of polyethylene beads in with the stuff being plated to reduce the banging of the parts which messes up the parts and the bath, ever try that?
Thanks for great work, look forward to a cookbook.

[MGnoob]

I've been plating the rifle bullets thinner than when i started, i do both pistol and rifle at .0035 thick.(.007 dia)
I find if i plate .001 more on the rifle after sizing it's like the spot for the gas check would just disappears and i find that tiny step that remain with the thinner plating aids in bullet seating in my bullet feeder on my progressive press.

I am looking into plastic balls that float on the surface to keep acid misting and water evaporation from occurring. the bullets all tumbling making and breaking the electrical connection is really important and i will try to post better photos..i have been really trying to take better picture but the auto focus on this camera makes it impossible.

I believe everything you would need is in this thread other than info on sizing, I fear it is obvious with my spelling,sentence structure and punctuation, aswell as poor photography skill will prevent me from being the cool guy with the awesomely prepared thread. I think it is kind of neat that you guys almost did it with me with all the suggestions and support.

I am so thrilled with the results as of now, i am probibly going to buy an adjustable thermostate and a few other items. i am just very fortunate i've go this awsome setup with only about $200 into it now.I've already shot 3000+ plated pistol rounds, and 1500 rifle rounds.I have anther 1200 to shoot but at the range yesterday Somone's gun ( not mine )started spitting out burst and discharging without even touching the trigger.....it was a terribly unsafe condition. upon returning home "somones" trigger pin came out in multiple pieces.

I've been driving my girlfriend nuts running around the house yelling "Gold!" they look so great.I'm more happy with how they shoot. now that i have reached a consistant result i wanted to work on accuracy, i have the new eotech and magnifier but the range has been close for 3 weeks and when i snuck in the other day "somones" gun was unusable.I amgoing going to post a new thread in reference to the saeco#221 projectile i had questions about overall lenght, i've been leaving them long and wanted to see what other people were getting for results when seating them to the roll crimp groove. i have been having some bullet setback when feeding, but it could be the gun or magizine it seams to missfeed the 1 and last round of the mag. only the 1st one when the mag is full but i may be stuffing 21 or 31 in there who knows.

[rsrocket1]

MGnoob,
For the autofocusing woes on your camera try this:
If you can shoot with one hand, use a sheet of paper, post-it note, index card or something with an edge on it with your non-shooting hand and hold it next to the subject which you are shooting. Put it right on the object and right in the middle of the frame through your viewfinder. Press halfway down on the shutter button of the camera, pull the paper away and out of view, then press the rest of the way on the shutter button. The high contrast of the paper might help the autofocus feature.

It's worth a try.

[RobS]

You could also try the Macro-Mode on your camera if it has one............often times it's a button or function with a picture of a flower.

[MGnoob]

i think the solution is a new camera....I thank you all for your advice.
Putting the item to be photographed on a sheet of paper does help.
I been trying to use the half press but has no effect.
this is actual a video recorder that allow picture or stills.....for some reason the recordings are of better quality than the stills.
there are no focus settings...i spent about 45min the other day trying to do a better job.no luck

[Charles L. Cotton]

Thanks for this thread MGnoob. I've been planning to use the dry tumble PC method, but like you, I don't like the time required. Your method will be much more efficient as I can start the plating then do other things related to reloading.

Thanks again and please keep us up to date on any changes.
Chas.

[nhrifle]

I tried plating boolits once before with poor results. They turned a copper color, went through the sizer fine, but leaded my gun barrel. I think this method may work for me and will try it once I get a couple other projects done first. I also found this video that gives another look at the equipment and process: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fY8JW5vNGVs

[MGnoob]

That's a great video! That is just a much larger version of what i have.....I still think and eccentric drum would work better with larger dia. projectiles. i still get a flake on the bottom of mine sometimes... and burrs from sizing if i skip steps(The accuracy is not effected) while i love 115grain projectiles these 124 naked 130 plated seem to me more of a universal round, some of my pistol don't like 115. That said you can't even compare cast/lubed or coated to plating. my biggest suprised thus far are the extra hardness i get from such a thin coating, and that such i thin plating can be so effective. i never would have though .0035" would be enough to withstand rifleing+Presure...but i gu ess fit is king(SIZE).

*the smell of expocy/PC is so much worse than acid copper...rust on nearby equipment is an issue though.*

I almost didn't do it, i was scare of cost and failure but i was fortunate and neither are an issue...and i have another 4 set of custom molds on order with ballisticast(.223)

Once you master the plating.....it is the most cost effective, easiest solution to leading-smoke, and can be used in full progessive setups.. i've just have to automate my casting and sizing machines and stock up on powder primer before hillary. Hopefully soon i'll have some full-atuo/belt-feed boolits for you guys.

mine is a small simple setup while you can go larger...it is unessisary with it only takin 3 hours a load. unless it's a busness or you somehow shoot even more than i do ,which is possible

[MGnoob]

I also wanted to mention. the whole copper fouling thing must have to do with the anode material. I've shot completely blackened failed plating, and it flake off and effects accuracy..but still leave a barrel clean. I also don't mean 5 or 10 or 50. i've shot over 1000 total **** projectiles and no copper left behind.I expected to see copper fouling, other than 1 time with .22lr that got left in the texas sun(store bought) and lube melted into powder, un-lube projectile produce fouling and hang-fire.

[MUSTANG]

1. Off and on since the mid 1970's I have tried plating, with mostly poor results. Looks like you may have some ideas that could resolve past problems I experienced. May try your techniques this winter.

2. What success are you having with .224's? Accuracy, Distance, Velocity, etc...? I still seek the holy grail of a 2750 to 3000 fps velocity, with accuracy of 1MOA in .223 and .308. Never hurts to dream the impossible dream.

[MGnoob]

1. Try it, it's very easy..... go buy 1 gallon of di/distill water at walmart, 1 quart of battery acid from autozone for $8 and find some copper sulfate at home depot or online. i bet you'll be happy with the results even without the brightener and a handful plating at a time.

2 The pistol accuracy is perfect. My rifle accuracy isn't there yet i get 3-6" groups @ 100 yards last week with outright flyers here and there. i am getting some "fins" on my casting. mold alignment due to modifying handles is most likely the cause this is made worse by plating. i just shoot them anyway.my goal is ammo for full auto fire and it's going to take alot of practice before 6" @ 100 yards is going to matter, if ever........or you could all just start calling my "Hollywood".
Once i receive my auto cast molds i am sure the quality of my projectiles will increase...these are 60 grain projectiles before plating.. i don't remember there weight off hand 62.5-63 gains i think.
i need to switch from ramshot exterminator to xtac..i believe X-terminator is only good up to 55grains and my 55grain epoxy seemed more accurate than my current plated one.
I also just need to refine my reloading practices a little as-well. Also i need to try seating them .07 deep at the roll crimp groove rather than leave them long.
I would like to have the case completely full seated short. as it stands now i can feel the powder shake in the case but another 2 grains would be full i'm at 23 grains now.....FMJ load data suggest 3000fps+ i haven't got a reading yet on my chrono.. can't seem to pick up the projectile but it could have been light/weather issue. i am going to try again next week after holidays.
i am curious what the fps is.... it's great plinking ammo that is cheaper than .22lr so i am happy as-is but i will be chasing the 1moa aswell. i think it's more than possible

2500+????? 9mm
http://s1339.photobucket.com/user/MG...tml?sort=3&o=0

9mm and .45 autocast mold sets
http://s1339.photobucket.com/user/MG...tml?sort=3&o=1

[MGnoob]

I'm really taking my plating to the next lvl now. I will be doing some experimenting to see how important phosprized copper anodes is to the process...
The 1st anodes i can't really be sure of there composition as they were given to me. they new ones arriving this week are 101 copper alloy(one of the highest and most expensive grades)
After the cost of the newer anodes and how suspending a bar not competently below the surface causes premature failure, i wanted to use copper nugget anodes due to them being less expensive than flat stock(I think). the initial downside of this approach is you need titanium baskets which or outrageous overpriced even given the fact there made of titanium.It was also hard to find the appropriate size for my round bucket plating tank.and a comparable square tank hold like 20gallons of solution which is more than i want to deal with at this point.I killed 2 birds with one stone though, my baskets will be able to hold nuggets or the new 6x6x1/2" plate anodes.The seller through in 2 anode bags aswell.I don't know how well they'll hold up to my solution since i usually exceed the 5% acid content that is recomended.
I kind of screw up and order some (10 lbs)copper nuggets of ebay for $5 per pound, unfortunatley there are oxogen free copper meant for cynide baths.
The 101 copper bar cost me $10.60 per pound.I am hoping the sludge produce by the incorrect copper will be contain in the anode bag, decreasing the frquency i'll have to clean the soltuion.
Here are some photo's of the copper nuggets and the titanium baskets.



I stumbled across a thread on casting zinc which on first thought seemed like a bad idea for several reasons but after alittle research i think copper plating zinc have some merit.
the advantages as i see it are that lead molds will drop zinc under-size so i could plate then to the exact dia. without sizing, and the copper will protect the barrel from the hardness of the zink.
one of my initial thoughts was that copper plating them was unnecessary since thier thread claimed they didn't need to be lube. but after learning how hard the material is it seams some copper plating will be a good idea.I will probably not pursue this for years as i am more interested in perfecting what i am currently doing but definitely will someday come into play with lead bans/price increase.

It's a shame the casting zinc thread turn into a "I'm taking my toys and going home"

Baskets
http://s1339.photobucket.com/user/MG...tml?sort=3&o=1

copper nuggets/balls
http://s1339.photobucket.com/user/MG...tml?sort=3&o=0

i should also mention that while the material seems very expensive(and are) the 6x6x1/2" (approx 15lbs) will be able to produce an estimated 75k 9mm and maybe 100k+ .223s now that i can sumerge the entire anode i will be able to consume the entire anode and not leave me with short pieces of scrap anode.i am also going to throw what is left of the old anodes into the basket with the new ones.

*EDIT* The reason i bought the wrong anode nuggets on ebay is everywhere i have seen only sell it in like 220lb buckets. Although if i called up i am sure i could get some of them to sell me less than a full bucket/drum. the shipping will probably be outragios compared the to $6 for the 10lb i did get

*edit* i have also rigged up a thermostat and added a solvent tank for surface prep. i get some flake on the base of the projectile sometimes, i think it is from the sprue depositing mold release lubricant on the base......while i am sure prep is important i haven't notice any fingerprints or issue involve in handling the projectile barehanded, but i try not to handle them before plating and have always plated freshly cast boolits.....it is also my hope that tumbling in de-greaser for 5-10 min will also cutdown on lead and contaminants in the plating solution..i haven't decided if i will start using DI water for the rinse tank....the di water is .80 per gallon but i like to dump it after every 2-3 uses although now i will do it every time since i will go de-greaser to rinse tank to plating tank then a finial rinse then dump the rinse water and repeat.

[45Reverse]

MG:

I'm curious about something...you noted some flaking on the base of your bullets after plating. I've experienced some of that too. Have you shot any of your bullets yet? If so, have you been able to recover any of the rounds and inspect them for copper loss from firing? I’ve test fired about 100 plated 9mm’s now and while there is zero leading or copper fouling in the barrels of my PX4 and PC9, I’m pretty sure I’m still getting some copper loss although I can’t prove it because I don’t have a good way of recovering fired bullets intact.

I use standard copper plumbing tubing for my anodes. I smash it flat and bend it over onto itself to broaden its surface area, then wrap them in several layers of cheesecloth to keep sediment out of the bath. I’m getting very nice and shiny plating on my bullets with it. I’m sure it’s not as good as the stuff you’re getting but it might be worth a try if you want to save some $$.

I’m using the same acid copper process you are although I’m sure my setup is more crude than yours. I’ve done a lot of reading and am beginning to suspect the flaking of copper has more to do with the effect of the hydrochloric and sulfuric acids on the surface of the lead than it does the pretreatment of the bullets. According to what I’ve found, those acids tend to leave unsoluable salts on the surface of the lead which the copper then plates over. Since the salts aren’t a part of the lead itself, the copper will break away when the lead substrate is distorted....when you smash test one of your rounds, how well does the copper adhere to it? Mine tend to crack and peel after 3 or 4 good solid smacks with a 3 lb hammer.

I’m taking a slightly different approach than you are to try and correct it. One thing I did that helped a LOT was to slow down the rotation of my plating barrel (~1 rpm) so that the bullets didn’t tumble so aggressively over each other during plating. Just a slow and gentle tumble is more than adequate for even coverage and protects the bullets from damaging each other in the process.

I’m also going to try an initial strike plating in an alkaline bath first, then I’ll build the copper to .006” thick in my acid bath. Everything I’ve read suggests an alkaline plating bath produces better adhesion on lead. We shall soon see as I have a batch of alkaline bath chems coming in the mail. If it works, my process will become a two-stage process. First alkaline, then acid. If it fails, well, I’ll be offering an alkaline plating setup for sale here

I should know more by next week. If all goes to plan I’ll run a test batch this weekend and report on the results next week. I’ve already done a little write up (with pics) on my acid copper process and will be adding the alkaline process to it as soon as I get a feel for how it works. I’ll be sharing that with the rest of the board as soon as I feel like I’ve got the whole concept perfected.

45R

[MGnoob]

You can smash mine many times even into a hex shape without it coming off. once you make a hex shape one and pick a sid and smashb it till it's close to 1/8" the copper will break and flake. but it still has lead on the copper flake. I've now recovered some off the steel backstop(they had just swept the floor so mine were the only ones out there.) they look like any other plated/jacket projectile.i've also shot through multiple targets at diffent ranges and i just wind up with a clean hole no chaffe.
Some of the flakeing at the base and or black burning Is definatly from not enough agitation and/or too many parts in to small of a drum. also the profile can effect tubling my skinny long .223 don't get the flake.but my short fat 9mm do....but i don't use sprue lube on the .223 so i'll have to wait to find out

The flaking i am still getting, some of them come off in polishing leaving a perfect diamond shape the ones that don't come off if you pull at them kind of mess up the Bevel base on my projectile.....it's got to be contamination from sprue lube (i think) If you look closely at the side by side 9mm.223 photo you'll notice an example of each flaking senaro.
I notice when sizing that you can kinda stamp the flake back on and i haven't noticed any problems with the questionable one.. anything that isn't up to snuff i throw in the scap bucket anyway.

I am waiting to see how the different copper work out i am starting to suspect that with an anode bag or cheese cloth you can get away with using some lower quality grade coppers...I haven't been able to find metallurgical data on copper pipe.Although using copper pipe will more than like ruin your solution over time, some of it's short comings can be address though filtering, chemical processes, and plating out onto a steel brillow pad. My first anode may have not been phosforized.. You want a scum build up on the anode but a good skum not scum that develope and falls off the rebuilds and falls off.. maybe i should post a photo of the scem in my tanks the next time they get dirty.
I am also starting to think older copper pipe with lead may work better than newer copper pipe with zinc


If you look on youtube they have all kind of morons shooting handguns and rifles in thier pools. As much as i dissaprove of this i am contemplating it. some of these guys are shooting less and 12" be;low the surface with people on the other side of the pool.. i would be concern that if not at the bottom you could skip it out of the water and kill someone if your dumb.

Water is the only thing i can come up with to recover the projectiles.

Keep me updated on you alkaline bath....i've been thinking about going cyanide.


I am confident my plating stay pefectly intact in pistol... i think the noses on the rifle may be slumping over from not being hard enough. but until i get my new autocast molds i won't have solid answer on that for a couple months.

[MGnoob]

So, i fired factory loaded 55 grain 5.56, hand loaded store bought 55 grain projectiles, and my copper plated projectiles...
The FPS was all right around 2000fps.. i don't think that i was getting accurate readings because i was getting over 2600fps with my epoxy coated when i did test it.
I did get a 3 shot group at 100 yards with my 7.5" barrel AR that was within 2"( 2 on top of eachother one 1.5-2" away.. not really enough shots 5 or 10 would have been better but the where really bad projectile i was just disposing of...... they had fins on the tips. i shoot over 300 of them and all in all the accuracy was much better and consistent now that i seated them short and in the crimp groove.

Also i shot a few plated 9mm rounds underwater and to my surprise all of the copper plating was removed... i wonder if this happen in the air as-well.. i guess it's onto ballistic jell or a high speed camera.I had recovered some rounds last week in the indoor range that still had copper on the base and where the rifling is but the tips where obliterated.Maybe the plating should be thicker. I think it still serves its purpose. No leading or smoke, perfect accuracy in handgun, and soon to be perfect in rifle when i get my new molds..it seams i know i can now add more powder safely and if i can gain some accuracy through better casting and higher velocity i'll be satisfied.

[MGnoob]

i realized all/most projectile are damaged by underwater firing After watching this you-tube video. at the end of it the copper on the bottom of the pool very similar to what i experienced.
i wasn't sure if the projectile left the barrel as one piece or if the projectile comes out followed by the copper ( i am still not sure). I just thought the bullet would be recover pristine due to movies and CSI television. there was distinct rifling on the projectiles i recovered and i guess that is what they are looking for.......usually random fired projectiles i've seen over the years have rifling as well as a color change like blue/purple or orange brown.

I'm going to have to recover more and see what i learn..well i am off to look for ballistic jell recipes.

I guess i'll have to conduct some above water testing.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQLBW5Olm0c

[RLW]

MGoob, let us know what you find. I would think that if you can smash them with a hammer several times and the plating does not come off then it is probably adhering quite well. I see that you mentioned using cyanide, and that is generally how it is done but that would simply make it a no go for everyone else here for sure.

[MGnoob]

A fellow member is now using an alkaline bath and then copper acid.........i haven't looked into it myself yet but i thought most alkaline baths contain cyanide.
(I don't know what i am talking about though)
I also realize cyanide would turn most members off to the idea.If you take a little more care when working with it, i would used it.

Also, ballistics gel will provide some info...but without a high speed camera there will be some guessing and assumptions made.
i'm looking for a receipt that doesn't need to be refrigerated. I am thinking a 5 gallon bucket fill of knox gelatin will do, unfortunately it cost $80 on amazon shipped.