Plating better/easier than coating?

[RLW]

MGnoob, wondering if you might be able to try something for me. Next time you plate a batch would you mind cutting a couple bullets in half and then plating them? The reason I ask is that I am going to he swaging my bullets and I am building a swage press now. I am trying to find out if they can be plated with a flat base with no bevel on a hard edge or if I will need to set up to swage cores with a bevel on them.

[MGnoob]

sure! (i guess you need 5 characters to post hence the "!")

[MGnoob]

I wish i used better examples when trying to explain that 45reverse, but maybe simpler is better.

Amperage is wasted by trying to energize to large a volume of a solution
Too much amperage through too small of a volume of a solution, wastes amperage in heat being generated and at the extreme a dead short.

Going too large or too small with either factor amperage or volume isn't a good thing, and the 10-30amp per square foot is a guideline for industrial copper acid plating.. but there are many setups that could be withing this range and not work there are some outside of this range that do work... the smaller the volume the more sensitive the chemistry and plating characteristics will be.

There that seams alittle easier to understand

[45Reverse]

Smash test from just acid process on the left. Alkaline then acid on the right.

[MGnoob]

Looks good...I think the smash tests tell us a few things...
Overall whether projectiles are usable and if they will survive sizeing/loading/firing
It also helps determine what the problem may be, the worse two things being lamination and black burning on the lead surface, which is poor adheasion cause by improper chemistry, high amperage, and/or poor agitation/circulation.
and the not perfect but more positive sign brittle plating on a grey (somtimes white) surface caused by low amperage, too slow of a plating speed. and maybe too low of a solution temperature or too cold of a projectile.

I wish i had taken some photo's of my black burning failures..while disappointing it could have helped others.I'm sure there are other factors like surface prep.

[MGnoob]

I just want to mention, I've found a full-auto range that has no interview process. Just apply/pay and get your membership card and gate combo in the mail.
The only restrictions in the rules are i must give atleast 24 hour notice before full auto use, only people who posses a State issued machine-gun license can shoot Rapid-fire, bump-fire or full-auto. It's a shame i can't let friends/family shoot it, But atleast i can go get some experience through trigger time.
I am hoping what this range lacks in facilities it will make up for in privacy....i still assume it's won't be 5 min before someone is giving me a hard time.

*edit* since this post is off topic i figured i should add this other off topic post too it.
I received my lead blood test report.. it didn't include any number or data...it just said after review i had normal levels of lead..While this is good new i wish it told me the actual content in some form of measurement so i have a reference point.i'm actually surprised it isn't elevated.. after a life of shooting and work in many industrial fields, the last several years i have been shoot alot more...i've shot 20k rounds a year for 5 years and in the last 2 years i've been shooting 30-40k per year...then i added reloading and casting to that over the last 12-18 month..i know it take long term exposure to elevate your levels or several instances of extreme exposure.. i know of people who work in range maintenance and repair for large companies that have had pretty extreme cases of exposure.... from cutting steel with lead on it in an enclosed space without the use of the protective gear, ventilation system they had with them and decided not to use.

[MGnoob]

Just to update you guys, that range i was suppose to be shooting at today, had sent me my membership card and a copy of the rules,which said to call 24 hours before full-auto use. When i called they told me they don't allow full auto any more..it sucks. I have already filed another application at another range that i think will work out ;although, that's not the first time i've said that. it's going to be another 4-5 weeks to see if that pans out. I may have found somone on NEshooters forum that will let me try it out on his land.

Ballisticast contacted me and my .223 molds are almost done. on schedule i might add. As soon as i receive the molds i will post some photo's of my "step plating"
after that unless someone needs help or wants to make comments this thread will have run it's coarse...RLW will be taking it from there to show you how it is really done

[RLW]

Just to update you guys, that range i was suppose to be shooting at today, had sent me my membership card and a copy of the rules,which said to call 24 hours before full-auto use. When i called they told me they don't allow full auto any more..it sucks. I have already filed another application at another range that i think will work out ;although, that's not the first time i've said that. it's going to be another 4-5 weeks to see if that pans out. I may have found somone on NEshooters forum that will let me try it out on his land.

Ballisticast contacted me and my .223 molds are almost done. on schedule i might add. As soon as i receive the molds i will post some photo's of my "step plating"
after that unless someone needs help or wants to make comments this thread will have run it's coarse...RLW will be taking it from there to show you how it is really done

Easy now. I am going to try and get everything set up, but I have yet to plate anything. Looking forward to seeing how the step plating works out.

[MGnoob]

I shot 1000 rds full auto today, very fun! I used factory reloads.. i can't wait to run some of my reloads full auto, they worked great in semi so i am confident they'll work great aswell. I'll post again when i receive my new .223 molds.

[MGnoob]

Recieved my new sizing dies, it was a dissapointment. My molds didn't get tested, they had to go back the the machine shop. This was an in-house thing, not like they had sent them to me and there was a problem, I should have those pretty soon. i am still hopeful those will work well when i get them some time next week.

Here is the PM i sent to Lathe-smith for custom punches, it explains the problem i am having.We'll have to see how that works out.]

Shorty Sizing Dies didn't fix my problem.

If anything the problem is worse... i don't see how the shorty design helps PC guys.
Regardless of the die length, they still retain the projectile causing the next projectiles nose to be "Blunted"
The only benefit i see in the shorty die is there are easier to install/remove in the press, they will also allow a longer punch to be installed in the machine..

Could you please make me a ballisicast punch for 9mm that is .600" longer. It's the longest punch that i believe will easily fit in the machine and once the feed wheel drops the projectile into the die this will allow the handle to come down from the full up position before sizing starts taking place.....this is not an ideal situation but i guess i'll have to give it a try.

i am not sure if the standard dies has a more gradual taper and this is what make them work better than the shorty dies but if the longer punch makes it too hard to size the projectile causing deformed bases, i'll be going back the the standard die and punch..at-least with that set-up if i lubed the projectiles they came out almost perfect, but then had to by clean in corncob or walnut.

let me know the price with shipping of the custom 9mm punch with a jam nut, if it works i'll want one in .45 but i'd rather pay shipping twice then end up with 2 dies and 2 punches that i'll never use. thank you.(the .45 might be a different length)

[MGnoob]

Lathesmith's one quick guy, already setup the order for the punch. very reasonable priced... i am sure with the longer punch assuming i can get it in the machine, will push them through in one stroke. I wonder how hard it will be on me and the machine to size while still pulling the handle forward from the top rather than sizing from halfway pushing down. i guess i'll have to wait and see what we get. This is for the pistol calibers.. so far the .223 with standard punch and die seems to work perfectly.

i'll be wrapping up this project soon which will be nice.

[MGnoob]

i just received and tried the new punch.At first look i noticed the threaded portion seemed a bit long, i figured it wouldn't be a bad thing. I did have to remove the feed-wheel to install the punch.It went right in. Any longer would have been too long.
It wouldn't push the projectile through in 1 pull, i lowered the punch till just before the longer threaded section contacted the feed-wheel.

The projectile doesn't fall from the die in one pull, once the second projectile is sized, you can hear a distinct "POP!" from air pressure building between the 2 projectiles. I don't know if the nose from the second projectile touches the first projectiles base or if the air pressure pushes it out. It does work satisfactory, i just wonder if it would be any easier to pull the handle if the 1st projectile fell free.

The nose is perfect, the base is perfect, and it's easier/smoother pulling the handle than ever before. I'll need one for .45 as-well and after my fist full production run of .223 i may even get a die/punch for that.

i've been sitting on the edge of my seat wait for my custom .223 molds to show up. i believe they were shipped last Friday or Monday. So i was hoping they be here today, but maybe i'll be lucky enough to get them for the weekend.

[MGnoob]

I received my molds today, they don't fit in my machine. This is the email i sent ............

Hi Keith, i was glad to receive my molds today, just now i went to put them in the machine.
They don't fit, The pins on my ballisicast Mark X are .245" and the holes on the molds are .195"


I don't know if when you tested the molds you put them in a true auto-cast machine or if these small pin holes are for the magma machines.
Did you forget to change them to the ones for my machine after testing?


I was thinking about drilling them out or swaping them with one of my other sets of molds but i'm not a huge fan of "robbing Peter to pay Paul" temporary cannibalizing parts from one machine to put on another.Could you please send me the correct parts?



It was kinda of huge letdown to to wait the 8 weeks and still not be able to use them, i'm out of ammo for my M16 and i can't see buying any. Also i just hate to have to take things apart to make a brand new set/piece of equipment work......it sucks! Hopefully i'll hear from Keith soon.

[MGnoob]

I couldn't help myself and figure i'd try swapping one set of parts from my other mold sets to the new mold set.I figured i might as-well give it a try since when i get the new parts i'll have to do it anyway.At-least i'll know what to expect.I wasn't sure if the bolt for the sprue would have to be removed as-well or if the piece is notched to allow the piece to be removed without having to take off the sprue..You have to remove the sprue as-well to remove the piece that needs to be changed. So i stopped and put the mold back together. Not that is to much work to do it, it's just i don't want things all apart with pieces just waiting to be lost and while i'll have to do it atleast once when i get the new parts..i just don't want to play with it. I guess i'll have to wait. i sure hope the communication with keith is as fast as it had been and i'll be casting by next weekend.

[MGnoob]

I ended up swapping parts from one set of molds to the new set.Only 1 mold gave me trouble. There are pins under the set-scews that would attach the handles or in this case the "Keys" that mount the molds to the machine. One of the molds in my most used set of molds (9mm) did not want to drop the pin from under the set screw and it is a blind hole with now way of driving it out..Some of my molds used hardened dowel pins, some had points ground on them and i believe some where brass..they were consistent between mold sets but every set used a different parts, or different number of washers, some had nuts with shoulders others where regular lock-nuts(non Plastic ring kind). I should probibly stock up on these bevel or compression washers....or what ever they are called.

To get the pin out i soaked it in oil and tried rocking back and forth, up and down. It just didn't want to come out, i didn't like taping the bottom of the mold on my bench.I was also worried the oil below the pin was now creating a vacuum holding it in the hole. After an hour of this i gave up, and put the other ones back together leaving the one trouble maker aside, when i came back an hour later the pin had freed itself and had fallen out.

Like any new set of molds i have used, they leave alot of wrinkles when first used. I had cleaned them before i had switched parts so i had to clean them again due to the oil i got on them. they didn't look like they where oiled before shipping since they where just tested and they knew i would be using them ASAP. I had hoped it wouldn't take long to heat up and make good projectiles.I had been casting at 710f and stepped up to 810f. i must have run 500 rejects before i caved and upped it to 900f. After another 200 rejects i started making some good ones. The dropped free from the mold nicely.

I had been having some issue with my lead pour and was adjusting to work better with these small projectiles.. i must have messed something up or the extra heat caused something to melt then harden in one of the orifices because no matter what i do it only drips... i actually cast about 100 more using just 1 cavity.

Out of WW at 900f they cam out .222" @ 59.8-60.0 Grains. I plated about 550 of them With a cold plating soltion @ 40a for 1 hour, then 20a for 1 hours.
After plating the grew just less than .006"Dia and weighted 62.0-62.2 grains.

I loaded just less than 300 of them with 22.5 grains Ramshot X-terminator.


In conclusion, i was disappointed they didn't come in with the right parts, the lube groove is drastically wider than the Saeco #221(IDK if it matters yet)
It sucks i started having trouble right as i started making good projectiles, I also don't know how to fix the problem yet... there is no manual for the pot not the machine.
The one time i tried to remove the orifice plate i tried one screw and it seemed like there would be trouble.I am scared to do it warm.. i want to turn it on from cold for like 10 min which should heat the orifice plate then try removing it, i will probably try removing the upper workings first....i probably have about 1000lbs of lead through the machine so i guess some maintenance is to be expected.

http://s1339.photobucket.com/user/MG...tml?sort=3&o=2
http://s1339.photobucket.com/user/MG...tml?sort=3&o=1
http://s1339.photobucket.com/user/MG...tml?sort=3&o=0

The plating was very tough in the smash test, they sized easily with stock punch and die.
I know the brass looks like ****....it's because it is!

[lefty o]

interesting thread. im fairly impressed with what you guys are doing. i copper plated bullets for about 2 1/2 yrs for a living. being as we used a cyanide based solution, i can't really help you out too much, but have some thoughts. as for getting a shinier more polished bullet, to do that your plating barrel should be hex or octagonal shaped, as that will help the bullets rotate better, and they will self polish. keep rotational speed of the barrel at about 5-6rpm. if its all working good, they will come out nice and shiny with no need to polish after plating. im not sure with your chemicals how it all works, but for good adhesion of the copper to the lead, before plating the bullet cores must me absolutely squeaky clean. to do that we had a system to prewash the cores, and then prior to plating we ran them in a bath of caustic soap that we ran an electrical current through that would draw off the loose lead particles and plate them to a sacrificial plate, then they would be run through a rinse tank, and then finally the plating tanks. if they werent clean enough, adhesion was poor (we did not let that happen very often as scrapping 3000lbs of bullets would get mgmnt a tad testy). our chemistry would also affect adhesion, as well as the plating itself.

[MGnoob]

Thanks for the post, I find caustic to be worse to deal with than the acid...
I find volume of projectiles directly correlated with how shiny they come out.To avoid all the surface prep i have been using excessively high amperage..it works good but sacrifices overall surface Finnish, which is why we are starting to step plate them.

Once i do the next large run, i'll probably polish them for a laughs and show..i've got to cast up 5-10k of them then go through the plating procedure properly and not rush it..

Due to only having 600 from the first run it would have been a waist of time to try and polishing them...with the size of the vibratory tumbler i am using if you have 1,000s (maybe 3k) it wouldn't take long to put a shine on them. since i don't have a collator for my sizers, loading these little guys is already hard enough if they are fully polished they get real hard to hold on too.

i'd imagine with 3000lbs of projectiles or 350,000 (@62 grain apiece) of them they must polish themselves nicely.
it seams caustic soda and copper cyanide would be the opposite of what we are doing muriatic acid (HCI) and copper acid.
i'd like to see the two compared in person just to compare results....copper acid seems to be easier/safer for hobbyist
i am sure alkaline cyanide is better

[lefty o]

sorry, didnt mean to sound like we had plating barrels that would do #3000 per barrel. depending on our lines #250- #450 per barrel, just many barrels/tanks. ive had as many as 27 barrels plating at one time. we had seperate lines for pistol bullets (the line has to run cleaner for good adhesion), multiple lines for rimfire bullets, shot,buckshot etc. but you do have to have a minimum in a barrel for them to plate period, and the more you have (within reason) the better they polish.

[MGnoob]

That sounds right... i was thinking that 3000lbs in 1 load is alot but with lead being so heavy it wouldn't surprise me.. i also figured depending on the scale of the operation it could be accurate.. i can only imagine how many projectiles are produced a year.

i am doing plating runs of .223 right now, i'll post photos later.
My pump died after the second run... idk what happened.. i didn't rund Di water though it last time maybe crystal growth inside.. i'll investigate later

[MGnoob]

Ballisticast Mark X orifice removed for cleaning
http://s1339.photobucket.com/user/MG...tml?sort=3&o=2
http://s1339.photobucket.com/user/MG...tml?sort=3&o=3
45lbs 60 grain .223....over 5000+ projetiles
http://s1339.photobucket.com/user/MG...tml?sort=3&o=1


They are 62 grains after plating.
this thread has run it's coarse, any questions/comments can be left here or PM me, i probably won't be monitoring this thread as religiously as i have been..although I find myself coming to it to reference my own info.

I apologize for the broken English,typos, bad sentence structure and punctuation..while probably difficult for you to read/understand there is some good info here.Happy casting and coating guys.