Plating better/easier than coating?

[MGnoob]

I see the coating craze has taken off, and while i agree it works great. My Epoxy coatings where a lot more work than my copper plating.
I believe doing powder coat would give a better surface finish than epoxy, copper plating was so much easier,cleaner, consistent.
i just made my first attempt yesterday and it was a near 100% success. I am going to shoot them tomorrow. I don't expect any copper fouling which would be worse than lead fouling. i am just curious how they'll shoot with what my measure was already set too.They feed through my bullet feeder perfectly which was one of the biggest problems i had with the epoxy or plain lead.

Anyway, this is my first post and is off to a sloppy start. i am going to trying and post photo's.
While my set-up would be pricey to buy you could build your own pretty cheap.
This is a basic copper acid solution which i plated 150 124 grain bullets (actual weight 123.5----weight after plating 130.0 grains)
I think it will hold 500 9's, 1200 .223's maybe more this was just the first test run. I could plate at any speed i just started low 20 amps per sq foot for 3 hours which plated .004 (.008 on the dia.) They came out almost pink but after being dried and exposed to air they look like copper. I vibrated them in walnut which didn't work, so i tried SS pins which was loud and slow and did not achieve the glow i was looking for because as you know shiny is better.I am going to have to get some ceramic media for polishing, or maybe try running them in the ss wet wash for my brass.

I think cast bullets without a coating shoot great from all my handguns no issue with leading, i am gearing up for rifle though. With how easy it was i am just going to plate all of my projectiles. i am going to do .008-.010 for pistol and .010-.012 for rifle to start.I also have to use a harder alloy for my rifle i am having issues. it would say it takes like 3 mintues of actual work to plate these and they cost about $.01 per projectile.

I Can't seem to upload right now i keep getting an error. I will try again later..kind of lame post without picture, anyone help me out?

[MGnoob]

I hate i had to sign up for photo bucket, i usually wouldn't join a forum. This community has provided me with so much knowledge i just wanted to contribute something.
This system works so well because of the rotating drum.

[MGnoob]

http://i1339.photobucket.com/albums/...ps8df61601.jpg

let me know if you can view this and i will add more, thx.
(The camera makes them look more brown than they are)


Epoxy .223
http://i1339.photobucket.com/albums/...ps31a558c0.jpg

Rotating drum
http://i1339.photobucket.com/albums/...psd0777ed4.jpg

Rotating drum in bucket
http://i1339.photobucket.com/albums/...ps3b6512ca.jpg

Rectifier
http://i1339.photobucket.com/albums/...ps97b9b0a7.jpg

Anodes
http://i1339.photobucket.com/albums/...psdf5ceda3.jpg

[Moonman]

The photos of the projectiles have FOCUS problems.

[MGnoob]

I am just glad to hear you can see them at all. It is a very cheap camera I bought to photo damaged shipments. Up until last year i didn't own a camera and i still don't own a cell phone.

[bmiller]

This looks very cool! Can you explain the process in more detail?

[BIGRED]

ARE you using Molds that are undersized and after coating you get your desired diameter? are you using standard sized molds and then sizing bullets back down to proper diameter? .008/.010 is alot of thickness added if you are using standard molds. having a 9mm drop at .356 then adding .008/.010 puts the diameter at .366 which is way too large, and if you are resizing them back to .356 how hard is it to resize?

[MGnoob]

I just returned from the range, i am happy.Shot like all the berry's DS i'v loaded and shot.I'll have to setup a bullet trap so i can inspect fired projectiles. it's a safe bet that if the pc/epoxy stays on a properly plated bullet without lamination issues will hold together in handgun....we'll have to see about rifle though.

The process is simple. you put freshly cast boolits<---(I've been waiting to use that Term) Into the drum, connect the jumper cables, and finally turn on the rectifier using the time current chart( i will supply). I have to still perfect the polishing, although it really doesn't matter.
.
as far as sizing....The mold drops them .002 over the .356 + .008 of plating.So they are .010 over. I just size them, it is easier than sizing an Epoxy coated projectile.While i see the value in casting undersized, (i don't think the lube groove effects anything) unless you where going to plate .020 i don't think it's worth it considering i can use the same mold for lead, epoxy or plated.Also on my epoxy rifle round i don't use gas-checks and exceed 3000 fps.

Solution is: *note i didn't use a brightner or HCI acid, I just didn't have any at the moment*
5 gallons DI water
10-12 oz copper sulfate crystals per gallon of finished solution ( i used 10)
1 gallon 70% sulfuric acid
about 5ml hydrochloric acid per 10 gallon of solution
a copper brightening agent (there all trademark/trade secret so you have to buy it not it's precursor ingredients unless your a chemist)

Directions:
1 put the copper sulfate in the bucket and add the Di water stirring until all crystal dissolve.
2 Add the acid a little at a time being careful not to melt the bucket due to the heat generated by the reaction *NEVER ADD WATER TO ACID*
3 Add the remain ingredients
Note what you have created is plain battery acid with copper sulfate in it

this solution is reusable, if you were to dispose of it i would mix in baking soda to neutralize the acid, at this point you could pour it down the drain which i wouldn't. i would evaporate off all the water then just place the bucket with crud in the bottom right in the trash.If it where gold or silver solution it would be advisable to reclaim the metal using a different process i won't get into.

The only other thing i'll mentions is the anode has to be made of phosphorized copper, or else a sludge-like brown copper precipitate will occur which will effect plating and contaminate the solution. the lead held in-suspension while not ideal will not effect the plateing process but should be remove if it accumulates

bear with me i will post the current density chart, i didn't find it on the internet it was in my grandfathers plating bible
http://i1339.photobucket.com/albums/...psedf99cfc.jpg
Also just like wet tumbling with stainless the magic drum speed is 30RPM

[bmiller]

I know very little about plating. So do you hook a jumper to the drum mechanism? Did you build the drum mechanism or purchase?

[MGnoob]

Everything i know about plating could be learned in a 20 min google search except the chart i provided, i didn't invent anything here and just got lucky enough to have it work perfect the first time....i want to shoot about 10,000 of them before i say they're the same as $.11 projectile but time will tell.
I was going to make the same thing i have but larger instead i got this Small machine for plating test parts and lab work. i think i would be like $1000 to by but really it could be replicated easily and better, if you already tumble in SS media. The rectifier i have would be like $1200-$1600 which i also didn't pay for. but with less than $100 you could make a drum for a ss tumbler that would be great. and if you can find a welder or a battery charge it could be modified to preform 75% as good as mine for also less than $100 my epoxy way about $220 and some free toaster ovens .I mean it's just a couple hours more work then my who just cut my jumper cables in half and attached.

I'm not try to sell you on the idea, it didn't cost me no more than some jumper cable to do it this way, makeing the stuff would be amazingly easy.It would be a pipe within a pipe with a drain and electrodes in the sides.

I just started my second run, the rifle bullets and after 20 min the rectifier started acting up. i had to abort and don't know how it will effect the final product by starting and stopping with a wait in between. I was trying to post picutre and a video when this happened.I drop the anode in the bucket it was a trick to retrieve it i wanted to put a leash on them so i could retrieve them more easily but rushed it.In the bottom of the bucket there where huge growth of copper sulfate crystals, i mixed it all back up, i think the problem i may be having with the rectifier is it is cold and have to let it warm up before applying load, i am also worried the solution is to cold, i guess we'll see
I know the camera sucks now that i have used it a couple of times.

.223 before plating
http://i1339.photobucket.com/albums/...ps1221be66.jpg

inside of machine and 20 mins of plating
http://i1339.photobucket.com/albums/...psb557f63f.jpg

Video of machine running before failure
http://s1339.photobucket.com/user/MG...8074c.mp4.html

[dilly]

TONS of questions about plating. I think it's really interesting.

1) Do you think you can apply a plate that works for full velocity rifle rounds?
2) When you size the .01 oversized bullets do you do so in one step, or two? Does it cause any damage to the plating?
3) Wasn't there somebody on this forum who figured out a way to refine their own copper acid by some sort of chemical reaction and copper wire, copper coins, or jackets from range lead?
4) I just want to say that the suspended tumbling plating method is genius. Any other attempts I have seen have been bullets laying still on some sort of grate and it leaves attachment points and uneven spots.
5) Keep it up, and keep us posted. I have looked into it some and I think home plating seems like a great solution. I hope it catches on.

[MGnoob]

I find it hard to believe the rectifier isn't working propery. after adding the acid the water reached 142f i waited longer than i should have and plated at 75f the water did raise to 79f while sitting on the cold concrete floor. i could get any solid info on temp but i believe 90-110 to be an ideal range.
Currently the solution is 42f at 9.9 volts (The max my rectifier goes) i can only generate 5 amps of current, my first though was a bad connection, now i think conductivity of the solution is too low.

[MGnoob]

1. this is the point of this entire exercise. my complete rounds 9mm cost .06 and my .223 will cost .11. less than it cost to purchase their respective projectiles only. take into account i will not buy brass. pick-up only
2. i do it one step with the heated base on and some of my lube in the die it takes little effort on my star sizer. although with the ballisticast design i bet you could hammer .03.I don't want my first thread to slander a sponsor so we'll leave it at i don't have one
3. No, that doesn't make any sense. when you plate the anode dissolve into the solution it is something that happens over the life of the solution, my guess is they were using the wrong kind of copper and the wrong solution IE white vinegar.
4 the tumble method is the only way to do volume, tieing them to a wire like youtube while a great science project for a 6yrs old has no practical real life application for bullets.
5.Everyone at my club thought the epoxy was stupid and that plating can't be done because it has to be thick or they say.....
I was sure i would get it to work, i never though first try, now that i am having problems the 2nd time i am pissed...i am currently looking around my house for an aquarium heat. i am thinking about jail house heating it with a piece of copper tubing coil and a 120v plug. but i don't want to contaminate the solution. I am going to be busy for a couple weeks but i want to shoot some plated rifle which i am sure will be better than my epoxy rifle. then i need to cast a few 1000 and plate them on a week end.

[MGnoob]

Gee i am just thinking out loud here but i wonder if i don't have enough projectiles in the basket and they keep breaking connection with the cathodes. It kind of makes sense due to it being an intermittent problem ie comes and goes. there are 300 in there a little less than 1sq ft surface. but bet if i added 300 more and did 40 amps for 3 hours or 20 amps for 6 hours it would work.

[sdcitizen]

How about a cut off 30 gallon drum on top of a hot plate or something similar to do the hot water bath method of heating, put your whole 5 gallon bucket in something with 6" or so of water around it to maintain temperature? At any rate your setup is awesome!

[MGnoob]

Something like that is going to have to happen. i've got a hot plate but the 6 gallons of solution is to heavy to put on it especially is i have to do like a double boil you'd have to add the weight of 2 contains. i i had some fire wood left i would just light the stove and it would be 90.
Something is inhibiting the solution from conducting amperage. is it too cold, does it need more copper sulfate, am i not getting a good negative connection to all of the bullets, I just don't know.

The only difference between yesterday and today is temp and bullet type/quantity.
i hope it is just cold because that can be fixed.

Thanks for your interest. i am more than likely going to build one i would like to be able to do 2000 .45 at a time. (something like 3000 9mm or 4/5000 .223)

[dilly]

1. this is the point of this entire exercise. my complete rounds 9mm cost .06 and my .223 will cost .11. less than it cost to purchase their respective projectiles only. take into account i will not buy brass. pick-up only

Let me rephrase my question on full velocity rifle loads.

Manufacturers of plated bullets don't advertise them to go faster than 1200 fps (sometimes 1500). For this reason, mostly plated manufacturers make handgun bullets. What is/will be different about yours that you think will make them suitable for 3000+fps?

Also on my epoxy rifle round i don't use gas-checks and exceed 3000 fps.

I took that to imply that you were intending to get that kind of velocity out of these, although that's not necessarily true. Correct me if I'm wrong. Anyway I don't think you could cycle most AR's without going above 1500 fps, could you?

Reading back it sounds like I'm being negative but I'd really rather encourage you. I like what you're doing.

[MGnoob]

I didn't think you where being negative and i always feel the same way rereading anything i type.
I don't think there is anything different about "my" plated projectiles
I read that you need gaschecks and harder lead for higher fps.(I don't)
i tried making low volicity rifle rounds with unique. unless you build a rifle specifically to shoot them they won't cycle.i went to almost 145% max load. the case was almost full....i just damaged my gasrings, it did almost cycle.Since i couldn't get it to cycle i just started loading will rifle powder.
i drive them past 3000fps coated no gascheck out of regular wheel weight lead. I don't have a high speed camera but the recovered projectiles are mostly intact and if you miss they leave leave a pink trace in the snow. i was worried they where tumbling but the punch clean holes.

I expect the plated ones to function the same as the coated ones with improved accuracy.The only issue i have is with a couple bad mags i have, i get a misfeed and i crimp tight to the epoxy so they can't spin so they don't push into the case but the projectile get's bent preventing it from chambering correctly. The new mold i got should help the problem i also am seating them deeper now.

The old mold was a 55 grain they where more meant for bolt action in my opinion. they where accurate at 50 yards at 100 yards standing and shooting rapidly i can get 2 or 3 out of 10 into the bullseye. the rest are near by. It's been a harsh winter especially near a field with the wind so i load in my truck then run out and spray a few mags before i get too cold then hop back in the truck.

I am waiting for atf approval for my RDIAS . so if it hits paper at 100 yards it'll be fine, it will take 10,000s of rounds before i get tired of my 7.5" upper by the time i get my stamp i will have been working on it for 3 years. almost 2 just for the transfer to the dealer and the transfer to me personally i blame Obama and every politition that came before him.

[MGnoob]

so i spoke with a couple knowledgeable people and they say it is solution temp. i tested the rectifier by trying to plate from one anode to the other and i still couldn't achieve a current density of more than 5 amps. i tossed in a glass aquarium heater and it is slowly heating the solution tomorrow i will reattempt the rifle bullets. i had the hci acid for the solution, 100% ate through the glass ample i had it in (took 3 weeks). so this glass heater is only temporary with a acid concentration of 25%.i'll post tomarrow with the results.

[KYShooter73]

Very nice. I tried plating the 6th grade science project way, and could plate, but the scale was much too small, and my methods less than uniform. Keep us posted.