Plating better/easier than coating?

[StratsMan]

You say you'll make .223 plated boolits for $.11 each??? I like experimentation and figuring out how to do new stuff, but Hornady is cranking out 55 grain FMJ's and Soft Points right now. I can get them at my Local Gun Store, $9.99/100 plus tax... That's too cheap for me to mess with experimenting for the moment...

Now 30, 35 and 45 cal is another story....

[MGnoob]

I think you missed something my rifle rounds, complete loaded rounds are $.11 not just the projectile.
brass=free .027primer+.06 powder+.01 projectile=$.1 bang bang
it takes less time to plate then they do to cast, unfortunately they shoot faster than bolth.

[Walter Laich]

Also watching and learning.

[MGnoob]

I am up and running again.I sat down to read the manual. in the trouble shooting guide it says my problems could be caused by a missing jumper (wire linking 2 terminals). when reading further it says if the volt limiter activates the rectifier circuit breaker must be reset. This unit is supposed to be mounted in a enclosure and hard wired.I just have an extension cord attached to it, i had only been using the power switch on it to turn on off and restart.I ended up just unplugging the unit from the wall and plugged it back in. the unit reset and is running.This unit has alot of feature and i am only using it in it's most basic setup.I was told i may need to install the jumper when i received it, since it worked it indicated i didn't have too.

I think it is so funny my problem was i needed to un-plug it and re-plug it....kind of like fixing the internet. I though it's master power switch would reset it but i guess that's not the case per the manual.

solution temperature was definitely causing the voltage limit to be reached. now the water i 70f and it is running, i bet with warmer solution 100f, hci acid and brighter they look just like berry'ss bullet just thinner plating. i'll post picture in 2 hours when there done.

[JRP]

I just returned from the range, i am happy.Shot like all the berry's DS i'v loaded and shot.I'll have to setup a bullet trap so i can inspect fired projectiles. it's a safe bet that if the pc/epoxy stays on a properly plated bullet without lamination issues will hold together in handgun....we'll have to see about rifle though.

The process is simple. you put freshly cast boolits<---(I've been waiting to use that Term) Into the drum, connect the jumper cables, and finally turn on the rectifier using the time current chart( i will supply). I have to still perfect the polishing, although it really doesn't matter.
.
as far as sizing....The mold drops them .002 over the .356 + .008 of plating.So they are .010 over. I just size them, it is easier than sizing an Epoxy coated projectile.While i see the value in casting undersized, (i don't think the lube groove effects anything) unless you where going to plate .020 i don't think it's worth it considering i can use the same mold for lead, epoxy or plated.Also on my epoxy rifle round i don't use gas-checks and exceed 3000 fps.

Solution is: *note i didn't use a brightner or HCI acid, I just didn't have any at the moment*
5 gallons DI water
10-12 oz copper sulfate crystals per gallon of finished solution ( i used 10)
1 gallon 100% sulfuric acid
about 5ml hydrochloric acid per gallon of solution
a copper brightening agent (there all trademark/trade secret so you have to buy it not it's precursor ingredients unless your a chemist)

Directions:
1 put the copper sulfate in the bucket and add the Di water stirring until all crystal dissolve.
2 Add the acid a little at a time being careful not to melt the bucket due to the heat generated by the reaction *NEVER ADD WATER TO ACID*
3 Add the remain ingredients
Note what you have created is plain battery acid with copper sulfate in it

this solution is reusable, if you were to dispose of it i would mix in baking soda to neutralize the acid, at this point you could pour it down the drain which i wouldn't. i would evaporate off all the water then just place the bucket with crud in the bottom right in the trash.If it where gold or silver solution it would be advisable to reclaim the metal using a different process i won't get into.

The only other thing i'll mentions is the anode has to be made of phosphorized copper, or else a sludge-like brown copper precipitate will occur which will effect plating and contaminate the solution. the lead held in-suspension while not ideal will not effect the plateing process but should be remove if it accumulates

bear with me i will post the current density chart, i didn't find it on the internet it was in my grandfathers plating bible
http://i1339.photobucket.com/albums/...psedf99cfc.jpg
Also just like wet tumbling with stainless the magic drum speed is 30RPM

Listen to your grandfather, he knows what he's talking about...tell him John from IMP says Hi

[MGnoob]

So funny your a member, mike had said you were into boolits.

So i have success again, once i was up and running the solution was too cold but at around 70f i started to be able to have a current density of 10 amps at 10v, i was worried about discoloration. as the plating took place the solution warmed once i hit 20 amps the volts started to come down to where i like it 3.5 volts this happened at 85f. since i wasn't plating at a constant speed i had to guesstimate the time. i wound up plating .0045-.005 thickness. they came out bright pink like last time and within moments of drying turned copper, there in the tumbler now. i wish i had cleaned the media it's got all kinds of nasty in it from cleaning brass and caselube.

So i learn the minimal temp is 85f. enjoy the pic i'll post them when there done tumbling as well.
i need a heater and ceramic media.

Finished saeco #221 .223 .005 thick plating (.01dia) final weight 63.5 grains
http://i1339.photobucket.com/albums/...pseddb67dd.jpg

[MGnoob]

So these ones polished better than the other ones. I can't wait to load them up and shoot.
I am having a hard time getting the stuff from the stainless media off but here's some photos

dirty from tumble
http://i1339.photobucket.com/albums/...ps01856a03.jpg
semi cleaned
http://i1339.photobucket.com/albums/...ps9993d243.jpg
individual
http://i1339.photobucket.com/albums/...ps3274e787.jpg

[Idz]

Can you post a dimensioned drawing of your setup? It appears you have a gear driven screened drum full of bullets. Is it an aluminum screen? I assume the cathode is attached to the screen somehow? where does the anode sit, inside or outside the drum?

A brightener I've heard of but haven't used yet consists of 1 gm urea + 2 ml glycerine per 1 liter of plating bath. Supposedly it works by coating the strong electric field points and insulating them from the plating bath so you don't grow copper crystal spikes, which is what gives you the matte finish. If you try this let us know if it works.

[MGnoob]

The entire drum mechanism is non conductive. If you made it from metal you would plate the entire unit causing you to use many times the amps for no reason and destroy your efficiency. if you look at the photo the cathodes come in from each side an touch the pile of boolits. there are 2 anodes on either side of the unit above the work which is recommended, and 2 cathodes in the drum(mine are either stainless steel or titanium)

as far as a brightener that is a recipe i considered
as far as dimensions that is a 7 gallon bucket for reference i don't see what size would matter, except you should have a 2 to 1 anode to cathode ratio ( I think that include the mass of the items to be plated) and you need to know how many square feet your plating.

as far as copper crystal growth as you solution cools it looses it ability to hold as much solids and conduct current as i just learned. i am not sure about "Supposedly it works by coating the strong electric field points and insulating them from the plating bath" maybe if you are getting growths on the anode and cathode but i have't experience that.

I am not sure if i will make my own brightener at this point or buy it, there are alot of brightener and recipe on the internet but brighter are material specific ie chrome, nickle, copper. also many of the component are extremely cancer causing.

photo of my 130 grain plated projectiles loaded
http://i1339.photobucket.com/albums/...ps4521018b.jpg

photo of 124 swaged bullets i was given (made by zero?)
http://i1339.photobucket.com/albums/...ps51b32bee.jpg

[MGnoob]

IDZ do you want photos with a tape measure in it, i prefer not to draw it in cad...if i where to draw it i would draw the one i want to build, a drum for a ss tumbler that would function similar to what i am doing just a little better. hmm let me look up the website that sells them and i will post a link i think they have drawings.

you would be out of your mind to buy one of these while great for there purpose you could build one better and for 1/10 of the price even if you aren't skilled with your hands.
http://www.sterlingsystems.com/html/...ng_barrel.html

[Idz]

Thanks for the link. It makes things much clearer as to the size of things. I mentioned aluminum screen because the copper won't plate onto it. Is the drum completely submerged in the plating solution? I was thinking of tipping a rotating bucket at 45 degrees and lining it with screen as a cathode contact and placing an copper anode in the center but your setup looks better.

[MGnoob]

i though the link would be clearer than anything i could explain or photograph.Why wouldn't the copper plate on aluminium?
I do like what you're saying more specifically because it is the complete opposite of what i planned.
In my current setup the projectiles are submerge but not the entire drum, although i would like it to be fully submerged it doesn't matter unless you overfill the drum.I think with your design you would need to do it just like your saying but without the screen and just a wire with an "anode bag" on the end of it, it's weight with the projectiles will work with gravity and keep it on the bottom even when the bucket is rotating.
So how would you rotate the bucket while holding it on a 45?
also it's not like the projectiles are going to roll around the bucket, the bucket will rotate and the projectiles will stay at the lowest point.. maybe i am not getting it by why use the screen?? the connection is made by all the bullets touching each other and the anode bag... also remember the 2:1 anode to cathode ration.

the one i wanted to make would be like an 8" pipe with a 4" pipe in it. you would fill it and put the whole thing on a SS tumber, it would be completely self contained with "posts" stick out the end while the whole think rotates there would be wires that rub on the posts making the connection...like the way bumper car are powered. I would want a vent in this unit to bleed pressure and potentially explosive gas.
*edit* in my design the projectiles would go inside the 4" pipe and it would be perforated and you would fill the whole 8" volume with solution or at least 3/4 full. also please note this isn't a fully though out idea with anode and cathode placement.

[MGnoob]

So i am not sure if i mentioned it but i was using the ss dry in a vibratory tumbler.I am going to try to plate 600 9mm at once, then i am going to try to wet tumble with the ss and dawn dish soap. I think this may work better and not leave such a residue on the projectiles. i just wanted to try this before i buy anything.Picture to follow tonight.

Anyone else have any idea for DIY plating? i love the suggestion of setting up the entire 5 gal bucket to rotate.
i am trying to think of an option for people who aren't already tumbling in SS.I am going to keep my eye out for a welder or battery charge to convert to a rectifier just to show how you would so there will be less for someone else to have and figure out, unfortunately when using random devices each set-up will be alittle different. you would need something with a 60-100 amp capacity...I think a fork truck battery charger would be ideal.

[Ken73]

I was looking at plating previous to going to coating; I had heard about the barrel plating but couldn't find anything on it when I looked it up. I had even gone so far as to make a "barrel" out of aluminum screen-door mesh but once I found powder coating I dropped it.

I think the biggest issue is going to be finding out how to do this on a small scale without breaking the bank. (How to make the barrel, power supply, heater, etc.) Too bad someone like Caswell hasn't figured out how to make a kit for <$100. (Has anyone tried contacting them?)

Another small advantage is that coatings can fill minor blemishes that plating won't. But, if you can run plated boolits faster than coated - that would definitely add to the bag of tricks for making more accurate cast boolits (which is what I think we're all after?)

Very cool though, I'll definitely be following the progress!

[MGnoob]

I also noticed how the coating fill imperfections, although they still shouldn't be there.i just cast 600 9mm and put them in the plating tank.this was the first time i water dropped my lead. It cut down on the blemishes. I am going to have to do a hardness test i don't want my lead heat treated or anything like that, currently i like my hardness to be base solely on the alloy i am using.

Caswell does sell kits in the $200 range but they aren't drum systems.
i think you could get by without a professional heater
I still think you could be plating for around $300 if you already tumble in SS
$100 for the solution, $100 for the drum, and 100+ for a rectifier.
you could buy a real rectifier/power supply for 100-200 if you don't plan to plate more than 1 or 2 sq feet surface and don't mind waiting alittle longer for them to plate.
While coating is an option,plating once set-up is easier/faster.Also the chemicals in plating can't be any worse for you then cooking off epoxy/PC or any of the chemicals associated with painting.*edit* there are many plating chemicals that are really bad but we're not using any of those at the moment

I think i really save time not having to surface prep by using freshly cast boolits.I haven't tried tumble coating or spraying PC but the time it took to stand them all up to cook with them all sticky/slippery as well as keeping them from sticking together was a pain. PC is proply easier to work with than epoxy.

[Ken73]

So I need a little help understanding - the anode is the sacrificial copper part, and the boolits are the cathode - if you're using a plastic drum, how are you getting the negative side connection to the boolits? That was why I was looking at the aluminum mesh (which won't plate supposedly, and thus wouldn't build up with copper.) Or are you using electroless?

A drum would actually be pretty easy to make from that plastic mesh in the arts/crafts section; I think they use it for needlepoint or something? You could probably cut up an old plastic cutting board to make the sides. At that point it's just a matter of figuring a motor to run it.

Definitely agree, standing the buggers up on the foil is a pain, but the results are pretty nice too!

[MGnoob]

the anode is the sacrificial copper part and the boolits touch each-other and the cathode(s). if you look at the photo of the projectiles in the machine. there are 2 wire inside with crimped on cathodes.

regardless of weather or not the copper adheres to aluminium or not, it is conductive and will waste current as well as plate a ka-ka scum on it.
also google "copper acid plating aluminium". aluminium can be plated but involves extra chemicals/steps for it to come out useful.

it think it would be cheap to make, obtain most of the parts needed. you will have to buy some components/chemicals. the most challenging of which is phosoforized copper to make the anode.

[MGnoob]

Photo of 600+ 9mm saeco plated .004 thick (.008 dia.) 60 amps for 3.5-4 hours, temperature of 110f
http://i1339.photobucket.com/albums/...ps728ae451.jpg

photo of aprox 7k 9mm brass tumbled all at one for 2 hours
http://i1339.photobucket.com/albums/...psc904f0bc.jpg

Photo of the 300 polished .223 projectiles with gunk cleaned off with walnut
http://i1339.photobucket.com/albums/...psc8290633.jpg

[MGnoob]

So, unless there are any questions comments i am done posting.
I will follow up with pictures of plated .45's and a range report when i fire the plated rifle rounds, when i get around to doing it, good luck guys

* i also just learned they have to be polished before sized or the resistance may/will damage your sizer*

[Magana559]

Very cool! Wish I had done this before sinking a bunch of money into coating boolits!