Water dropping bullets to harden?

[Willyp]

I just read,somewhere,that this only hardens the outer layer of the bullet! How do you know if it hardens the whole way thru or into the center of it?

[Lead Fred]

Heat treating is a tricky business. Ive shot water dropped to 2500fps, so I really cant see any reason to make it harder.

Wheel Wieghts & water drop = good shootin boolits

[wch]

I have had very good results with water hardened bullets in relatively high speed loads for rifles.

[largom]

I just read,somewhere,that this only hardens the outer layer of the bullet! How do you know if it hardens the whole way thru or into the center of it?

If you have a hardness tester you can test a boolit then file a flat on that boolit and test again. Keep repeating until satisfied.

Larry

[sqlbullet]

The faster the molecules cool, the closer the the theoretical max hardness the lead will be. Based on this, what you heard is correct.

Speaking practically however, it matters not. The lead in the middle won't be "soft". It will be less hard. Depending on the diameter of the bullet, the temp of the bullet when dropped in the water, the temp of the quenching medium, the thermal capacity of the quenching medium, and how you hold your face when you do it, this "less hard" may or may not even be measurable.

The variations in hardness have no practical effect that I am aware of on either internal, external or terminal ballistics for our purposes.

[Char-Gar]

Tempering antimonial lead alloys, either by water quenching or oven tempering, is an expedient to gain harder bullets from cheaper softer alloys. The process imparts no other benefits other than additional hardness.

I prefer to use a proper alloy for the pressure/alloy without resorting to such measures.

[RobS]

The faster the molecules cool, the closer the the theoretical max hardness the lead will be. Based on this, what you heard is correct.
Speaking practically however, it matters not. The lead in the middle won't be "soft". It will be less hard. Depending on the diameter of the bullet, the temp of the bullet when dropped in the water, the temp of the quenching medium, the thermal capacity of the quenching medium, and how you hold your face when you do it, this "less hard" may or may not even be measurable.

The variations in hardness have no practical effect that I am aware of on either internal, external or terminal ballistics for our purposes.

This is sound advice. The advantage to water quenching/heat treating is in taking an alloy source (often times a cheaper source such as wheel weights vs mixing a particular alloy) and being able to make it to whatever hardness you need. Many people will water quench straight from the mold and whatever hardness comes of it does. Another way is to oven heat treat and at a particular temperature then take them out and quench in water for a desired hardness. I go another route in that I water drop my boolits straight from the mold and then age them. Next I'll anneal them in my oven, if needed, to a softer BHN for whatever application I want. Since building a PID, my convection toaster oven makes this a very easy task.

[Jim Flinchbaugh]

A water quenched or heat treated boolit will be harder, but will still be
way more malleable than harder alloy boolit. So if your rifle likes
Lyman #2 fine. If you want to hunt with said boolit,
I would water drop WW to get the same BHN, but better performance on game.

[leeggen]

What you are asking as to the outside being harder than the inside is probable true. It is called "case hardening" the bullet, when water dropping from the mold. When heating in an oven for set time will make a hardening more like tool steel, where it is harden thru to center of the boolit, I water drop sometimes just to harden so my boolit doesn't lead the barrel. Some want a boolit that just does not mushroom so they use the oven process to harden. This is the way I see the difference. Any of you machinist might explain a little better.

[bangerjim]

Tempering antimonial lead alloys, either by water quenching or oven tempering, is an expedient to gain harder bullets from cheaper softer alloys. The process imparts no other benefits other than additional hardness.

I prefer to use a proper alloy for the pressure/alloy without resorting to such measures.

Agree 110%. Alloys should be formulated based upon their TRUE harnesses and not rely on heat treating, as that is just another variable thrown into the accuracy mix that you have no real control over. If you want 22Bhn (lino), mix it that way. I use ~14-15 (~Lyman #2) and then PC/GC it for rifles. All subsonic stuff is ~9-10 and PC. No leading here!

If boolits are "soaked" in a temp controlled oven for a specific time and then quenched, hardening will go all the way thru. The temp as to be uniform thru the metal and cooled as rapidly as possible. Your just-cast should fall under that scenario. If temp does not reach a homogeneous level, then you may get a form of case hardening on the surfaces.

Many find WD'ing worthwhile and most useful, especially if your feedstock of hard alloys is limited. I would suggest trying it for yourself and shoot some of each to compare!

We report..............you decide!

bangerjim

[fastfire]

We report..............you decide!

bangerjim


VERY WELL SAID

[Willyp]

Thank you all,for that. Now i have a better understanding of this.

[AABEN]

I water drop all of my bullets now even for my muzzle loader

[tayous1]

A lot of good Info here ! Would you water harden for range scrap ammo in a 9mm or 45 acp HP? I'm wanting the mushroom. Also does the temp of the water matter?

[dikman]

AABEN, I don't know about yours, but my muzzleloaders use pure lead, so there's nothing to be gained by water-dropping them.

[RobS]

A lot of good Info here ! Would you water harden for range scrap ammo in a 9mm or 45 acp HP? I'm wanting the mushroom. Also does the temp of the water matter?

Scrap alloy or any alloy for that matter needs to have antimony for it to have any quench harden capabilities and antimony with a bit of arsenic will be a bit better as it will age harden quicker. Straight lead or lead tin alloys will not quench harden but some water quench anyway as it is their process. To each his own. If you are wanting to cast a hollow point it will need to be soft enough to expand so depending on your scrap alloy this could be counter productive.

As to the others who like to straight alloy your boolits that is perfectly fine but I don't believe that water quenching/heat treating is a variable that is inconsistent at all as I've had many test that have been repeatable and targets that will show the results. I guess somebody should let the cat out of the bag as Cast Performance Bullet Company must be doing things wrong and for all these years now???

[AbitNutz]

What happens if you size them down a few thousands? I waster quench as well now and then. they're definitely harder. You can feel the difference when you run through a sizer...and there in lies the rub. If you size them, are you removing the thin surface hardness? If that's the case, then it only makes sense to water quench when the mold drops the bullet at a diameter that doesn't require sizing...no?

[bangerjim]

What happens if you size them down a few thousands? I waster quench as well now and then. they're definitely harder. You can feel the difference when you run through a sizer...and there in lies the rub. If you size them, are you removing the thin surface hardness? If that's the case, then it only makes sense to water quench when the mold drops the bullet at a diameter that doesn't require sizing...no?

If you are talking about boolits dropped righ out of your mold, then they will be of relative uniform temp inside and they should be the same hardness inside. Not just on the surface! In fact, they are probably hotter on the inside!

Again, as stated above, file one down or cut it in half and check the hardness with your tester INSIDE the slug. You do have a tester.......right?????

You will find hardness should be pretty much uniform.

And yes, they WILL go thru much harder. But if you gun requres sizing, you must do it. Or just forget the silly water dropping thing all together. Or pull harder!!!!!!!!

bangerjim

[CHeatermk3]

I'm shooting a MN M39 in CBA military cast matches. I cast for this rifle using the Lyman 314299. We swage-slugged the chamber end of it and came up with 301/311 bore/groove.
Water-quenched WW tested 22 and air cooled 16. This was using a hardness tester on the flat of the nose made by cutting the nose off with a hacksaw. Very little leading after 60 rounds with correct lube.

I'm sizing using a Lee sizer that produces .3115 on the driving bands. I'm leaving the nose an as-cast .304 for now the rifle seems to prefer it this way.

Hope this helps.

[btroj]

I like water dropping for some applications. Being able to shoot a range scrap bullet at 1500 fps in a plain base mould for 45-70 is nice.

I don't need real hard bullets most of the time but when I do it is achieved via water dropping, not using linotype