allen & wheelock drop block rifle

[cw44]

I have recently purchased an allen & wheelock drop block rifle in I believe 44 cal lip fire ! I have been looking for some ammunition for that caliber and can't find any ! Does anyone know of anyone reproducing any of that ammunition or if it can be converted from another cartridge ?
Or if possible the gun can be rechamberd for a different cartridge ?
Thanks

[uscra112]

Dixie Gun Works may have adaptors. Do not alter that rare rifle under any circumstances.

When you say "lip fire" I assume you mean rim fire. There were so-called "lip fire" cartridges that had a deeply concave base, used in revolvers to evade the Rollin White patent. I never have heard or read of a rifle designed for them. If you actually have that, I redouble my admonition not to alter it.

Some pics of it would be more than welcome !

Phil

[Gleedaniel13]

Dixie Gun Works may have adaptors. Do not alter that rare rifle under any circumstances.

This would be the best thing to do. You really need to have an adaptors.

[2AMMD]

Please don't alter anything that rare. If you really want to shoot it, someone can make an adapter to fire round balls at least, using primers or Ramset charges.
MY 2,2AMMD

[cw44]

Thank you for the replies! Sorry, I have been away.
When I purchased the gun, the owner told me it was a .44. When I looked it up, Allen and Wheelock were making the .44 lip-fire, and that's what I assumed it was...but since then I have done some research. I have made a camber cast and came up with these measurements: chamber length, 1.100; base chamber, .420; throat, .415; groove to groove, .405; land to land, .400. It is fully rimmed and a rim-fire.

[cw44]

I'm not sure if I am going to fire the gun or not , but it looks like the cartridge adds up to a 41 long colt !
But I would like to restore it ! Stock been broken a few times and repaired badly a couple times ! The barrel is rusty on the outside but the bore is bright ! I have taken it completely apart and cleaned it, first time in a hundred years ! That was after these pics . What are your thoughts on restoring a piece like this ? Every part on this gun is numbered 982 even the stock .
This gun served in the civil war CO.F,9th regiment N.Y. Calvary Civil War, in 1864 !

[uscra112]

That is a beautiful piece, as well has having so much historical value.

With that much of a pedigree, I would say don't do a single thing to it except make sure nothing gets any worse. You've got a very rare piece of history there, and it should not be "restored" or in any way "fixed up". This coming from a notorious gun-butcher, (me). I have had a barrel and receiver for one of those for at least ten years, hoping I'd find some parts. Saw ONE complete rifle at the antique collectors show in Novi, MI. along about 2007 or 2008. Guy wanted a couple grand for it, and it had no military markings at all. This is only the third one I have any knowledge of. Admittedly I don't read Cowans catalogs from cover to cover, so I may have missed one or two.

Anything you do to it beyond simple preservation will only reduce it's value. Stop any rust, but that is all. Scrub it with Ed's Red and a piece of burlap. Do not let steel wool into the same room with it.

As far as ammo, I also don't see anything that comes any closer than the 41 Long, but as far as my limited sources go, (i.e. Barnes) that cartridge did not exist until 1873. So what it may actually have been used with is still an unknown.

I have no clue whether anyone makes an adaptor that will let you shoot it. If anybody does, Dixie Gun Works would have it. With a lathe and a small mill it would be fairly easy to make, as a one-off, just for the fun of it. But for now I'd be content to do nothing but research for the next year or two. History of the unit that issued it, battles it might have seen, etc. Somewhere in there you may find out who made the ammunition. Troll ammo collector websites, ask questions. Troll civil war re-enactor sites - ask questions.

Go over to the ASSRA web site and ask. I just recently acquired an early Stevens New Ideal. With the help of another ASSRA member I now know that it had been chambered for the so-called "Harwood Hornet" - an almost unknown wildcat circa 1895/96. If I hadn't asked, I'd still know nothing.
The quest for knowledge on a particular piece is 3/4 of the fun of collecting. You have a much better subject there than my little squirrel rifle.

[Bent Ramrod]

cw44,

The problem with those old Ethan Allens is they were almost always chambered for some impossible rimfire or another. You are pretty much limited to black powder. The metallurgy is, as you mention, Civil War era. You might try to get (or make) some adapters made to use .22 shells as primers with a light charge of black powder. The only ones from Dixie I ever used were .38; I don't know what other calibers they offer. In my experience, they don't work as well in rifles, since the gases will leak around the primer and the odd particle might go back as far as your face. It always tended to make me flinch a little, but I was shooting a Remington #2 with a shorter breech block than yours, so you might have less trouble. The best place for the adapters is in pistols, where everything is held well in front of you.

Uscra is right; if you are not an experienced restorer of antiques, a good piece with actual provenance is not a good place to start practicing. It would be worth getting a book or two on the subject and reading up on it before taking the plunge.

I came across an Ethan Allen in .22 Long a long ways back, but the seller wanted a little too much. That one even had the little square wrench in the buttstock to remove the takedown screw on the receiver. It looks like your specimen has the square takedown screw sticking out of the right side. Does yours have the little trap door in the buttplate? If you're really lucky, the wrench might still be in there.

[cw44]

I think I am going to take your advice , and do nothing but preservation ! I still might make up some brass for it ! It looks like it would be a lot of fun to shoot !

I looked up a little bit more history on the regiment it was in. They were in quite a few battles , even Petersburg, Appomattix court house, and the surrender of Lee and his army !

I'll post some more pics when I get scrubbed down with " ed's red" !

Thanks Phill

[cw44]

Dixie gun works does have a 41 short rim fire conversion for a derringer but nothing in a 41 long !

[Battis]

I always clean the rust, dirt and grime from my antiques to keep them from rotting away.
I just repaired the stock on my Krag - it had an old repair that broke apart when I picked it up by the stock. Glad it didn't happen when I was shooting. If I ever get another old repaired stock I'll probably break it to fix it correctly.

[cw44]

I don't think it is possible to fix the stock without addhering another piece of walnut to it.

I was thinking at first of making a whole new stock and forearm ,but for know I'm just content to leave it as is . If I did make a new stock I would never throw out the original ! Will the stock get worse if I leave it the way it is?

Phill

[Battis]

This is what the old repair in the stock of the Krag looked like when I bought it. It seemed strong enough. I fired the gun a few times with no problems. Then last week I picked the rifle up by the stock and it split right along that old repair. I cleaned it up and used epoxy and pegs to put it back together. It won't break on that crack again. I was lucky it didn't break when I fired the gun.

repaired:


Not to hijack your thread, but I have an Allen & Wheelock .32 cap and ball revolver with engraving on the backstrap that I can't make out.
That is a great looking rifle you have there. I've never seen one before.

[uscra112]

I don't think it is possible to fix the stock without addhering another piece of walnut to it.

I was thinking at first of making a whole new stock and forearm ,but for know I'm just content to leave it as is . If I did make a new stock I would never throw out the original ! Will the stock get worse if I leave it the way it is?

Phill

Go to Cody, Wyoming, to the Buffalo Bill Museum. Have a look at his actual "buffalo rifle". It is in a place of honor, in a case all by itself. It's not what you'd expect, but it has been properly preserved and displayed.

I once tried "fixing up" an old muzzleloader, circa 1830s. Nothing of any great historical value. It had been larded with heavy coats of varnish, and looked horrible. The wood was so old that it had become very brittle. Other than saturating it with West System, (which is OK for rotten wood in boats, but not gunstocks), there is no restoring that lost strength. I hand scraped the varnish off, using cabinet scrapers, glued what I could, (I do NOT use epoxy!!!!) and gave it a new finish of linseed oil, the first five or ten coats being heavily thinned to get it to penetrate, and each coat allowed to dry for two weeks before the next is applied, then another coat every two weeks for about a year, rubbing down with burlap each time. After all that, I cracked a dime-sized flake off just trying to re-assemble the lockplate into its' mortise. It might as well have been spun sugar. Like to cried myself to sleep that night. But that's an illustration of what you will face dealing with 150 year old wood.

[Battis]

West System works for me.

[cw44]

I guess it would be possible to repair the stock , but there is some missing wood . Part of the stock on the right side has been replaced at sometime with a different type of wood . The forearm is cracked in a couple places and being held together with a piece of sheet metal ,maybe aluminum ! But for now at least I'm leaving it the way it is.

If I did shoot the gun with the stock in the condition it is in I would not be afraid of anything happening . With the size of the cartridge I don't think there would be very much recoil at all.

Phill

[cw44]

I think you should be able to find something online under allen & wheelock revolvers or ( for sale) where you would be able to find out what it says .
Nice looking guns though !

Phill

[alfageek]

Hey there,
Sorry about starting off of an old thread, but I just noticed it. My father bought one of these drop breach Allen & Wheelock rifles when I was a kid (Late 60's...). I got curious and dug it out of the closet last fall and he gave it to me. It is in great shape and I did some research. I have a picture of the .41 long copper rim fire cartridges I pulled off the internet. Used a huge lead bullet and a small case. The bullet sits to case diameter like a 22. I assume it was a bit anemic. I'd bet that is why this rifle looks so nice.... The newer .41 cases are too large in diameter but a 30-30 works as a parent. The bullet is another issue. I eventually made a die on my lathe to the chamber diameter and drove .44 round balls through. Seems to work. Because the bullet is shorter than the original I made the case longer to reach the forcing cone and seat the lead. That probably makes up some of the case volume lost to the thicker base in a center fire as opposed to the rim fire case anyway. To plug the primer hole I turned brass down to a tight fit and silver soldered it in. You then need to trim the case base to fit the gun. It must be a bit thinner than the 30-30. I used a light charge 22 Hilti nail driver blank for a primer. Seems to work better than a 22 blank. Drilling in the hole is a bit tough. You need to go in at a bit of and angle to miss the extractor cutout. Measure carefully. Then you need to mill out the cartridge base for the 22 rim. It works. I made a bullet seating piece for my set of 30-30 reloading dies and, once adjusted, it sets the bullet into the case end well. I may need to build an internal case sizing die for the front of the shell before I am satisfied, as the case narrows down a bit up there and you get a bit of blow by about 1/2 way down the case as it is now. However, I shot it, and there is no blow around gas coming out of the breach. I have two cases now and I plan to try it at the range for accuracy and tuning with LOW power BP loads until I am happy with the configuration, then make some more. The project is on hold because the world has intervened (like that never happens) but I will look to see if anyone is interested in hearing how it all comes out. I could shoot some measurements and pictures out to anyone who is interested in playing around with it. It's been a fun project, but I bet it will be a year or so before I get the time to finish it. There might be some more .41 long chambered guns out there, but I haven't run into them so far....
Take care all!

Oh! I do not have the little box wrench for the take down screw. Anyone know where one can be found? Baring that, anyone have a picture and measurements so I can reproduce one?
Thanks!
Dave