Lee fcd for 38 special or not?

[kryogen]

Is it ok to use my lee fcd to crimp 38 spl .358 boolits or i should just taper crimp a bit with the seater die?

No no for 9mm because of the sizing i have read and what about 451 in 45?

[tazman]

I don't believe the seating die for 38 special does a taper crimp at all. It does a roll crimp. The sizing issue would also apply to the 38 special.

[kryogen]

So would the roll crimp be good

[Westwindmike]

You don't need the FCD in 38spl. The roll crimp in the seating die does just fine.

[tazman]

If the boolit has a crimping ring in it, it will work perfectly. I you are referring to the 120tc you mentioned in the other thread, it will work ok with light loads. I have loaded that boolit just that way and it worked fine. If the loaded cartridge will go into the chamber it will work ok with a light roll crimp and a light powder charge.

[ElDorado]

The factory crimp die will swage your 38 bullet down just like it will a 9mm. Roll crimp revolver cartridges, and taper crimp auto-loading handgun cartridges. The factory crimp die creates more problems than it solves, at least with cast bullets.

[gefiltephish]

Ok, this turned out a bit overboard but here goes...

Many, including myself, much prefer to crimp separately from seating. That said, many millions of excellent rounds have been produced seating/crimping in one step. There are many who prefer to use that method. Either method is perfectly acceptable, it's just a matter of personal preferrence.

Many, including myself, view Lee's carbide fcd as an abomination, an unnessary evil, a sales gimmick that serves no real useful purpose. However, there are many who embrace it's use. Again, personal preference. What is the carbide fcd? Simple, it's a crimp die that has had a carbide ring inserted. What does it do, how does it work? 1. It crimps, simple enough. 2. Unfortunately, it also potentially post sizes the now carefully assembled cartridge by forcing it through the carbide ring. It's probably fine for jacketed, but not so fine for oversize cast bullets. At best, the carbide ring does nothing, at worst it swages your bullets to a smaller diameter thus reducing neck tension and potentially causing leading. If you find your cartridges "need" to be post sized, you're doing something terribly wrong and need to figure what that is and solve it.

The collet (rifle) fcd is a different device entirely and works quite well.

Although obviously associated, think of neck tension and crimping as two seperate things. Generally, I think of neck tension in terms of how many lbs of force is required to iniate bullet movement and is the result of the interference fit of the bullet to the case neck, but it's not quite that simple. There are numerous factors that affect neck tension, not simply neck id and bullet od. A list of factors off the top of my head below. I'm sure I'll miss a few.

1. Neck id after sizing and expanding.
2. Bullet od.
3. Bullet hardness, whether cast, plated, jacketed or solid.
4. Case design. Wall thickness and taper for example.
5. Caliber. This pretty much goes along with case design though.
6. Case manufacturer specs.
7. Brass hardness, whether by design or work hardening.
8. Seating depth.
9. Bullet material.
10. Lube and/or coating.
11. Case age.
12. Times fired.

Of course not all of the above will apply in every case, and realize there may be considerable overlap.

Taper crimp for (handgun) auto's and also bullets without a crimp groove to be loaded in a revolver (usually plated). "Taper crimp" is a misnomer, it's not really a crimp. It's ONLY purpose is to just flatten out any flair of the case mouth so that it doesn't interfere with chambering. Over crimping can have the undesirable effect of reducing neck tension by swaging the bullet inside the case neck, much like the carbide fcd. The difference is that an overcrimp affects mostly the case mouth area, whereas the fcd affects the entire bearing length of the bullet. In the case of cast, swaging of the bullet may also lead to leading of the barrel. Further, overcrimping for rimless auto calibers that headspace off the case mouth can result in the cartridge seating too deep into the chamber and not firing (firing pin can't hit the primer) and difficult extraction of the unfired round. Overcrimping of plated bullets can cut through the plating.

Roll crimp for revolvers and rifles with tubular magazines using bullets that have a crimp groove. For revolvers, the purpose is to prevent the bullet from pulling out of the case on recoil. If bullets should pull out too far, rotation of the cylinder is hindered. I also imagine accuracy flies out the window. For tubular magazines, the roll crimp helps prevent bullet setback due to recoil along with the weight of each cartridge pressing on the bullets. Otherwise a catastrophic overpressure condition could occur.

There are many instances where no crimping is used at all, such as bolt action rifles or probably any single shot, as long as they chamber.

Oh, and to the OP, unless it's undersize from Lee, the fcd will probably have no swage effect on .451-.452 bullets unless unusually thick walled cases are used.

[kryogen]

ok thanks

The FCD doesnt seem to touch the case wall at all on the 38 special ammo I am making, but I will consider removing that die, and adjusting the seater die to slightly crimp.
Thanks.

[jonas302]

If there is a crimp grove then the roll crimp in the seater will work super if no crimp grove the just crimp enough to take the flare out and lay flat against the bullet that should work for light 38s were there isn't enough recoil to move the bullet in the case as the loads get heavier a lee FCD works good to crimp were there is no grove some need the carbide post sizing ring knocked out some don't

[chsparkman]

I have found that the FCD works fine without swaging for revolver cartridges, at least in .32 H&R, .357/.38, .41 mag, .44 mag/sp, and .45 Colt, but not for the pistol cartridges I load, specifically .380, 9mm, .40, .45. Just my experience. For the pistol cartridges I've switched to Redding or Hornady taper crimp dies and they work much better. Some guys on this forum have knocked the sizing ring out of the FCD and it works great after that. I haven't tried it.

[gefiltephish]

Lee also makes a taper crimp die for about 12-13 bucks. Works well but not as convenient as the adjustable thimble on the fcd. I knocked the rings out the fcd's I had.

[Jupiter7]

Lee also makes a taper crimp die for about 12-13 bucks. Works well but not as convenient as the adjustable thimble on the fcd. I knocked the rings out the fcd's I had.

I use the lee taper dies on all my pistol cartridges, replacing the FCD. They work very well

[bedbugbilly]

I load on a 4 hole Lee Turret - seat and roll crimp my 38s in two different operations. I cast WC, SWC and two different RN. I size em to .358 - TL (regardless of if they have standard lube grooves) in Alox/Paste Wax - shoot 'em out of a half dozen different revolvers - have no problem leading at all. All I see is the dissatisfaction with the Lee FCD - for me, it works just fine. I use it to put on a moderate roll crimp on the 38s. Once seated, the cartridge goes up in to my Lee FC die just fine.

All I hear about is how this die "swages" the lead bullet. The carbide insert is supposed to be sized to insure that the cartridge is in spec. I load my 9 mm the same way only the FC die is putting a taper crimp on it.

Everyone has their own methods, likes and dislikes. All I know is that the FC die has never presented a problem with my reloads and all I load with is lead. To some, the FC die may be an un-necessary expense to some. For me, it's not and I like the Lee 4 die sets to use as it allows me to utilize my 4 hole turret and seat and crimp in two different operations. I suppose I could look at the 4 hole turret press as an un-necessary expense as I could actually load just fine on a single stage press.

My suggestion would be for you to give it a try and see for yourself. If you find that it sages your boo lit, polish the carbide insert to a larger I.D. or do something different. Everyone's mileage may vary - all I know is that it works for me and I don't worry about things I've heard on the "net". If it was swaging my bullets undersize, then I'd have leading problems - I'm not so I just load 'em and shoot 'em and don't try to "over think" it. YMMV

[jmort]

The Poll thread here is 2/3 favorable FCD and 1/3 unfavorable. The handgun FCD horse has been beaten to death. The handgun FCD can swage-down over SAAMI spec Boolits. For my jacketed self-defense ammunition it makes sense on every level. Enhances/ensures uniformity, concentricity, and reliability.

[35remington]

Reader's Digest Version:

To see if the FCD is having a negative effect on the tension/size of your bullet in your loaded cartridge, do the following:

Measure the diameter of the case over the midpoint of the bullet and at its base and near the case mouth. Now run through the factory crimp die. Measure again at the same points.

If there is any measured reduction in diameter, and you didn't want/need the bullet to be smaller than it was, well, it is now. Decide for yourself in shooting whether this has any effect to the worse. If it does, discontinue use.

My FCD will affect the diameter of a .452" cast bullet and I am surprised someone would opine it would not without asking about the final sized diameter produced in that particular set of FCD's mentioned. Mine post sizes to .471." Simple mathematics and measurement of post sizing diameter makes the effect on bullet diameter clearly obvious.

If the finished cartridge with taper crimp alone (and no post sizing) fits the chamber in question it is reasonable to ask just what the FCD did to improve or enhance uniformity, concentricity and reliability. If it in fact reduces the case diameter over the bullet after being run through the die it is fair to ask......did it reduce uniformity, concentricity and reliability? If there is a change, it very well may have.

Better to therefore check. If something was changed that didn't need to be changed, maybe, just maybe, it isn't a change for the better.

[Sgtonory]

ok thanks

The FCD doesnt seem to touch the case wall at all on the 38 special ammo I am making, but I will consider removing that die, and adjusting the seater die to slightly crimp.
Thanks.

38 special is the only caliber that i use the FCD for it dose not swage my boolits down. And puts a nice adjustable crimp.

[rintinglen]

I use the FCD exclusively in straight walled cartridges. I load ALL my 38's and 357's using one as the crimp die in the 4th stage on my old Dillon 450B. As I load many rounds of mixed brass (2,000-5,000) a year, the FCD is essential in making the cartridges all chamber. The problem stems from unequal lengths. A conventional roll crimp die will bulge the the case neck at the crimp to the point where the cartridge will not chamber. The FCD is an instant fix for that.
For match ammo, I use cases all of the same manufacture and lot, and trim them to get consistent lengths, but I do not have time for that for my plinking/blasting/ practice ammo. The FCD shines for these uses.
The one cartridge where I do not recommend the FCD is the 9 MM. There, every bad thing that has been mentioned comes to fruition, especially with mixed brass.

[rhead]

I get the impression that some nomenclature errors have crept into this discussion. My Lee FCD does affect the finished diameter of the boolit but only the small ring (it appears to be about a sixteenth of an inch or so) that comes into contact with the die. My taper crimp die could reduce the finished diameter of the boolit if i set it down in the press low enough. Both dies work well enough to correct two different conditions. The FCD has several moving parts and i sometimes wonder about its useful life.

[JimA]

The OP asked specifically about .38 special. The Lee FCD works fine for that cartridge if you use .358 boolits. The sizing ring will not touch your finished round on the way out unless you crimp excessively. If you need a larger diameter to fit your revolver or rifle it may have an effect.
I've never had a problem with and straight walled case with the FCD. My revolvers work fine without leading with standard size (.001) over bore. I'm sure some will have different needs and the FCD may not work well for them.
Pistol cartridges especially .45 auto are different. A .452 boolet will definitely get squeezed in the FCD. I use several different boolits in each of the calibers I shoot so I prefer to crimp in a separate step. I use a regular taper crimp in all ammo for semi autos.

[Boolseye]

Yes, I use it for .38 spl and .357, since the chambers in my m66 are tight and I have chambering problems otherwise w/ .358 cast boolits.