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Thread: Clip-On Wheel Weight XrF Data

  1. #41
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by triggerhappy243 View Post
    would strait W/W make a good bullet for my 45 acp?
    Late reply: Add 2% tin to COWWs and it makes a great boolit. Some alloy with pure lead too. I just use COWWs with the tin for 200gr. SWC for my NM pistol.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mod42 View Post
    I think that you will find that the formula changes very often due to the fact that the requirements for COWW is not very difficult. I would bet that raw materials are always out for bids, and the formula changes slightly each time raw materials are purchased. My guess would be that most COWW are made from recycled materials to begin with, which will constantly move the formula around.
    Don't know any of this for a fact, but that is exactly what was done in the factory that I used to work for.
    I've agreed with this and have posted the same for several years.

    What has really surprised me is that this is the third such test over the last several months including weights from both coasts and weights collected over several years, both clip-on and stick-on weights and the results have actually varied very little. Maybe shocked is a better word than surprised. It is good news for us certainly but . . . well, surprising.

    Rick
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  3. #43
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    Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook says add 1lb 50/50 solder to 9lb WW to get Lyman #2 equivalent. So, I've used that for years in my handgun, only I did 10lbs WW to 1lb 50/50. Works great.

  4. #44
    Boolit Master histed's Avatar
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    Just found this thread (so much to read here). Its information like this that makes it easier for us newbies to get the right mix for the right boolit first time out. Thanks for the information. This has been a very helpful discussion for me
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  5. #45
    Boolit Master BNE's Avatar
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    I added "P" and "T" today. In case yo are wondering, I scraped a spot on the back of these to get through the paint or dirt.
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  6. #46
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    Would it be possible to add zinc to the elements you are looking for? I'm guessing that since most new weights are made of recycled used weights, there would be more and more zinc included over time. I can't imagine the manufacturers would sort out zinc weights when they recycle the used ones. Having some zinc in weights won't make any difference when balancing a tire, but having ever increasing amounts zinc in the alloy over time might eventually cause some problems with casting bullets. I hope any zinc would be a very small percentage, but checking for it periodically might be an eye opener.

  7. #47
    Boolit Master wrench man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by quack1 View Post
    Having some zinc in weights won't make any difference when balancing a tire
    You don't balance tires do you!??, we see Zn weights all the time as Les Schwab, the nations #3 tire seller, has gone to them and I have to redo the balance they put on tires all the time!, Zn weight SUCK for balancing tire too!
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  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by wrench man View Post
    You don't balance tires do you!??, we see Zn weights all the time as Les Schwab, the nations #3 tire seller, has gone to them and I have to redo the balance they put on tires all the time!, Zn weight SUCK for balancing tire too!
    No, never balanced tires, but now I'm curious. Why would zinc be any worse than lead weights (or steel weights, for that matter) when used to balance tires? Other than a zinc weight being a little larger than a comparable weight made of lead, I'd think anything with some weight, clipped or stuck on the rim in the right spots, would do the job of balancing. Am I missing something?

  9. #49
    Boolit Master BNE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by quack1 View Post
    Would it be possible to add zinc to the elements you are looking for? I'm guessing that since most new weights are made of recycled used weights, there would be more and more zinc included over time. I can't imagine the manufacturers would sort out zinc weights when they recycle the used ones. Having some zinc in weights won't make any difference when balancing a tire, but having ever increasing amounts zinc in the alloy over time might eventually cause some problems with casting bullets. I hope any zinc would be a very small percentage, but checking for it periodically might be an eye opener.
    Yes it is possible. I have actually already done it out of curiosity. The only problem is the way the machine works....If you tell it what to look for, it will try to find it... Typically it will show a VERY small amount like 0.05% or even give you a negative value. I am trying to learn more about it each time I measure samples. The machine will display the spectrum during the scan. Any element present in measureable quantities will show a peak in that area of the spectrum. So I set the machine up to look for Pb, Sn, Sb, and As, but I also look at the spectrum during the scan and look for any peaks that are above the random "noise level". If I get a chance to measure this week, I will try to print out a scan and post it so you can see what I mean.

    Having spent most of my career as a process engineer, I doubt they are getting much Zinc in their melts. This is just my opinion, but I would hope that a company set up for smelting alloy for WW would have enough process control capability in their equipment to prevent Zinc gettig melted into the mix. If they allowed Zinc in, they would have the same issues we have with casting and they would not reach their advertised weight. I could definately see them not being too concerned about using a little less Tin or Antimony, but I think Zinc would mess up their process. Again, just my opinion. I hope to track down a technician or a process engineer at one of the WW manufacturers. A few questions would greatly add to our knowledge here.
    Last edited by BNE; 04-19-2014 at 01:01 AM. Reason: spelling correction
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  10. #50
    Boolit Master wrench man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by quack1 View Post
    No, never balanced tires, but now I'm curious. Why would zinc be any worse than lead weights (or steel weights, for that matter) when used to balance tires? Other than a zinc weight being a little larger than a comparable weight made of lead, I'd think anything with some weight, clipped or stuck on the rim in the right spots, would do the job of balancing. Am I missing something?
    You NEED the weight in a fairly specific location, as you spread them out they start to counteract each other, the lighter Zn weight will do this faster than the lead weight as they weigh about a two thirds of the Pb for the same volume, I took 7 Zn weights off of an 11R 22.5 on a Freightliner and put 3 Pb weights back on to make it right.
    I've also had to use COWW and SOWW in the same location to get some of those big mud tires to balance out!
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  11. #51
    I balance my own tires since commuting in a '94 2 door 3cyl Geo Metro being one of the lightest mass produced vehicles imported to us from Canada with a aluminum block, head and manual trans and 155 R 12 tires. It is extreemly succeptable to some resonances that get bad between 63 mph and 73 mph so a racer told me while I overhauled the engine overnight on a pallet in my driveway. I had the resonance issue he complaoned of. He was pushing 150 hp out of that 1L 3cyl stock trans with a ceramic clutch face that started life with 53 hp. However he had attributed the resonance to CV / axle, wheel rotor and engine resonance feedback peak but was wrong about the source as after thinking about it for several months and digging rocks out of my tires and noticing improvement that very slowly worsened over many tens of thousands of miles we decided to search forums and talk to old timers about light tire motorcycle balancing issues and resonances which rose to improper wheel assy balancing as most common cause. So we bought a cheap tire buster from HF and a inexpensive wheel bubble balancer and very carefully balanced all four used tires after removing pebles, and about half or more of the spin machine job weight installed when tires were new. So goes it with every spin balanced wheel assy since on about 6 vehicles and several sets of tires since including our 95 Merc Villager minivan with Michelins. The use of zinc or any other lighter material less mass / density will surely worsen the balance job from an already not near ideal starting point. Those old sage engineers realy knew their stuff when choosing lead IMHO. I dont get my lighter vehicles, Geo Metro or Mazda MX-3 with 1.6L 4cyl and 5 spd manual trans tires mounted or balanced ever we bought a box of valve stems and DIY and I have two of the most stable acting vehicles on solid ice I have ever driven, as we own 10.
    Last edited by AMT7; 03-25-2014 at 01:57 AM.
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  12. #52
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    On the consistency from manufacturer, I doubt that WW companies are melting used WW's. My guess is the "scrap" from recycler goes to someplace that produces the ingots to specifications from scrap. That company probably has production process to sort out the component metals in an alloy for remix to meet specifications of standard alloys consistently for general resale.

    Scrap gold gets processed to remove the silver, nickel, copper etc. in order to get pure gold. And the metals removed are also sold in their pure form. No reason they would not do this for scrap lead. After all the tin content of the solder in the lead bin at the local recycler is worth a great deal more than the lead. Worth noting when you sell scrap gold you only get paid for the percentage of "gold" times your weight. The silver, copper, nickel etc. is bonus money for the place that actually does the melting.

  13. #53
    Boolit Master evan price's Avatar
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    Zinc and iron tire weights suck for two reasons:
    1. Not as dense, so the weight isn't as concentrated in the spot that needs it (Weights are bigger for same weight).
    2. They are too hard. Lead weights will conform to the rim better when hammered in place. The zinc and iron weights don't bend. They rely entirely on the spring clip to hold them on the rim. If the spring clip is cheap and poorly treated (common) they will break or fail and the weight flies off when you hit a bump.
    Due to market fluctuations I am no longer buying range scrap jackets.

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  14. #54
    Boolit Master BNE's Avatar
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    I just added "AL-MC". Sorry for the long delay since my last post. Work has had me on the road and it been busy when I've been back in the plant.

    The picture below is a print out of one of the "AL-MC" weights. This "Spectrum" is what I monitor while scanning. The two large peaks are both for lead. Note the "-0.05 value for As. I would interperate this as 0% As present.
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Clip on XrF scan.jpg 
Views:	66 
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ID:	102688

    Sorry for the grainy picture. I need to figure out how to save it as a PDF and then have a link here.
    Last edited by BNE; 04-19-2014 at 09:56 AM. Reason: Fixxed the attachment / picture
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  15. #55
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    The link to the attachment isn't working.

    Rick
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  16. #56
    Same here.
    What is .1% arsenic gonna do to me in an accident penetrating ones skin? It is added to harden lead particulary in batteries according to Wiki. 10ppb for water and apple juice is actionable but they just say reduce intake. Reason I ask is we have about a dozen car batteries I was considering very carefully with lots of safety equipment scavanging for lead.
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  17. #57
    Boolit Master gtgeorge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AMT7 View Post
    Same here.
    What is .1% arsenic gonna do to me in an accident penetrating ones skin? It is added to harden lead particulary in batteries according to Wiki. 10ppb for water and apple juice is actionable but they just say reduce intake. Reason I ask is we have about a dozen car batteries I was considering very carefully with lots of safety equipment scavanging for lead.
    Don't do it. Car batteries are not safe to melt and would not yield useable lead for casting bullets. Leave car batteries for the foundry although you could salvage the posts.

    Here is the sticky why not http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...-Are-Dangerous
    Last edited by gtgeorge; 04-19-2014 at 04:48 AM. Reason: Found the info I wanted to post:

  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by AMT7 View Post
    Same here.
    What is .1% arsenic gonna do to me in an accident penetrating ones skin? It is added to harden lead particulary in batteries according to Wiki. 10ppb for water and apple juice is actionable but they just say reduce intake. Reason I ask is we have about a dozen car batteries I was considering very carefully with lots of safety equipment scavanging for lead.
    Not only for your own sake but for those in the area around you . . . Don't do it!

    Rick
    "The people never give up their freedom . . . Except under some delusion." Edmund Burke

    "Let us remember that if we suffer tamely a lawless attack on our liberty, we encourage it." Samuel Adams

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  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by AMT7 View Post
    Same here.
    What is .1% arsenic gonna do to me in an accident penetrating ones skin? It is added to harden lead particulary in batteries according to Wiki. 10ppb for water and apple juice is actionable but they just say reduce intake. Reason I ask is we have about a dozen car batteries I was considering very carefully with lots of safety equipment scavanging for lead.
    Car batteries are bad news. Like kills you dead bad news.

    I would take them to a recycler and let the pros deal with them.

    Don't become a statistic.
    You will learn far more at the casting, loading, and shooting bench than you ever will at a computer bench.

  20. #60
    Boolit Master BNE's Avatar
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    As for the question of what good does 0.1% As do for you? Read the alloy chapter in "From Ingot to Target" and he will give you all the detail you could want.
    I'm a Happy Clinger.

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BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check