does your lube have enough friction

[felix]

The relax point is real and occurs in a 30-06 bolt gun at 16 inches average, depending very slightly on the powder number commensurate for the projectile. It is the point where the ACCELERATION of the pressure expansion reverses direction. The point was determined experimentally by some American Rifleman author doing barrel chops, 1/2 inch at a time. Noticed was the difference by the shifting of the copper fouling, much like the antimony wash appearance when and where. Obviously, revolter barrels will have a much shorter distance from the chamber where this phenomenon will occur. ... felix

[Elkins45]

So I have been thinking about this thread and came back a day later to find that others have been thinking in similar ways. How about a filler of corn starch holding 2 cycle oil with just a little Vaseline to ooze it all together? Under pressure the starch molecules are little stop leak pieces while the oil component is squeezed out of the intermolecular spaces.

Hmmm...

[44man]

Gear is right and I found the problem with a lube I tried but I can't determine if any were fliers, seemed ALL were.
What I call a flier is 3 or 4 shots in one ragged hole, then one or two out of the group. Even an inch bothers me unless I called it.
Runfiverun, I use Felix and my winter lube is actually the original formula. I just add a little more beeswax for the hot summer. I will find out this summer if I even need to do that. I am really liking the last batch.

[smokeywolf]

I would think the RQ and burn rate of the powder would be the predominant factor in when the pressure behind the boolit falls to the point (relax point) where it is no longer sufficient to obturate the boolit.
I would also think that you would want a lessening of pressure against the imperfect base of the boolit just prior to it losing the physical guidance of the barrel.

As applied to rifle barrels, barrel tolerances are typically measured in tenths (ten thousandths of an inch) rather than millionths, the lube has to provide a certain amount of pressure sealing. I have some doubts that the pressure behind the boolit will cause the diameter to adjust, spring back (obturate) in the .1 to .2 milliseconds that would be necessary to maintain a perfect seal as it passes through varying (+/- .0001-.0002) diameters along the barrel.

smokeywolf

[felix]

Smokey, you just defined the difference between BR ready barrels and the others. Your last sentence. ... felix

[Elkins45]

This idea of a thixotropic lube has really caught my imagination, so I just came back from the garage with two cups of interesting stuff. One of them is a simple mix of corn starch and two cycle oil that looks and feels a lot like a blue biscuit dough. There's no question it would flow through a sizer but I don't know how well it will cling to a boolet or if it has even the remotest chance of performing in a gun. If I get a chance I will load up some 358 Win tomorrow and see if it makes a mess or sprays them all over the target.

It's interesting that it feels a lot like silly putty and not at all greasy. I may need to cream in a little lanolin to give it a bit more cling.

[btroj]

So cornstarch and water behave in a Unique way. Poured slowly or touched softly it Bahamas like a liquid. Punch it hard and it acts more like a solid.

Makes me wonder how cornstarch and oil act. If they make a similar mix then it would go somewhat the opposite of normal lubes under pressure.

Not sure of this is good or not. Makes me wonder about how small amounts of cornstarch would make a normal one behave.

[geargnasher]

I predict leading and streaking of burnt cornstarch solids in the bore, based on my results.

Gear

[btroj]

Yummy.

Gear, have you tried a carrier made of a combination of micro wax, beeswax, and a touch of soy wax? Could the soy wax add the bit of softness we need at lower temps yet if used in about 5 percent levels not cause issues at higher temps?

[Elkins45]

So cornstarch and water behave in a Unique way. Poured slowly or touched softly it Bahamas like a liquid. Punch it hard and it acts more like a solid.

Makes me wonder how cornstarch and oil act. If they make a similar mix then it would go somewhat the opposite of normal lubes under pressure.

Not sure of this is good or not. Makes me wonder about how small amounts of cornstarch would make a normal one behave.

I used to teach middle school science and the corn starch/water behavior was always a good way to model plasticity of partialy molten rocks in the mantle...and just generally a lot of fun to play with. That's what made me wonder about how it might behave as a lube component with the starch acting as a stop leak. I'm wondering if the non-polar nature of oils vs the polar nature of water will change that particular behavior.

Maybe I will know more on Monday if I can make it to the range.

[btroj]

Let us know how it works. I think it will fail but I have been wrong before.

This is how we learn, we try stuff and see what happens.

[runfiverun]

then change it, light it on fire accidentally, spill some on our boot.
then try something else.

[btroj]

I chose to skip the fire, running barefoot into snow, and other such calisthenics. Sadly there are no photos......

I can, however, assure you that ATF grease stinks the house up quite well.......

[smokeywolf]

Let us know how it works. I think it will fail but I have been wrong before.

This is how we learn, we try stuff and see what happens.

3 decades as an engineer/R&D machinist taught me that R&D should actually be expressed as T&E; for trial & error.

smokeywolf

[geargnasher]

Yummy.

Gear, have you tried a carrier made of a combination of micro wax, beeswax, and a touch of soy wax? Could the soy wax add the bit of softness we need at lower temps yet if used in about 5 percent levels not cause issues at higher temps?

R5R has, sort of. I'll let him do the refreshing. The problem I had with soy "wax" is the low melt point. I don't think it's any better, or worse, than any other middle modifier we've fooled with, except in really cold weather it might get too gummy.

I've actually made and shot some dough made of bullplate and baking cornstarch. There's just enough polybutene in the bullplate to hold it together, and it works best if you mash it in a press. In fact, many of the cellulose carriers I tried responded well to being pressed, provided you have a good, sealed container (I used a clutch piston and input housing from an automatic transmission) so the oil doesn't all squeeze out.

Gear

[runfiverun]

soy wax adds a silky smoothness to the beeswax blend.
I ended up adding 10% paraffin to help slow down it's flow a little.
my moly complex uses 60% b-wax 40% soy then I add 10% paraffin to that to help center things a little.
that's why I only use @25% white lith grease, and 15% alox.
i bring the oil up with a small amount of atf when I add the poly-glycol moly stick after cooling everything down to a thick peanut butter consistency.

the soy wax alone will flow super fast and is pretty sticky.
the od green and od brown lubes are made from soy wax and they flow like nobody's business [they will coat a revolver in 2 cylinders full if you don't bolster them] they have no staying power in the lube grooves.

[btroj]

I need to spend some dollars soon and get a few more waxes.

[Bigslug]

I think the "Relax Point" is that mystical far off land where you guys will live when you get The Quest sorted out.

Been doing some thinking regarding the "snowplow effect" Gear mentions with regards to the front driving band scraping the bore clear.

Like any kid with a new toy, I've been blasting NOE 429421's down the tube of my Redhawk like crazy the last couple days - the lube being Ben's Red + 5% additional beeswax. There's some streaking in the bore that is obviously NOT lead, but I'm wondering exactly what component of the lube and/or powder (2400) it is.

What I'm wondering is: what this residue is doing for us?. At the BACK of the bullet, we know that lube is being forced out of its grooves by compression from the rear (pressure obturation), the front (drive band being pushed back), the sides (by compression to fit the bore), and by centrifugal force (from rifling). At the FRONT of the bullet, the driving band is compressing down to fit the bore, and it is running into whatever properties we left behind from the last shot. Some of this is obviously getting scraped away (how much is probably impossible to know), but more is being deposited from the back end of the slug. Are we getting lubrication properties from this bore residue? Sealing properties? Friction to help build up consistent pressure in the bore? Makes ya go "Hmmmmm. . .", don't it.

I also have to think that a lot of the "magic" that lube does for us is occurring in the throat / forcing cone area where the effects of engraving and obturation have not yet been finalized. A lube's hardest job is probably here.

[Eutectic]

Friction?????

Friction modifiers????

I am learning whatever we add to our formulations needs to be closely observed.... I think we need to look at the test results of our new formulation closely and try to determine whether we have added a 'friction stabilizer' or a 'friction modifier' ????

In the complexities of lube design a friction modifier could stabilize too I guess as I speculate.... but it doesn't seem so in recent tests!

hBN was showing a lot of promise testing in the lower temps for our future "Extreme" Lube. Good groups; and then they opened up.... Three guns displayed this in 20 rounds or so. Not real bad mind you.... but a minute of angle load became two minutes of angle!
hBN I was to learn, reduces friction for a given load. I found I needed to increase the powder charge slightly to retain my current velocity. I don't have a problem with this load change; I do with accuracy degradation. My hunch is the hBN is eventually coating the bore and making it slicker. A couple patches of ATF & Varsol lets accuracy return but the process repeats itself! I can get more shots before cleaning with Alox 350 on board.

I will closely watch new additions to qualify as 'friction stabilizers' from now on!

Eutectic

[runfiverun]

pete.
the question is.
does that hbn coating maintain itself once it's seasoned, or does it build up?
having a slight load change isn't a big deal..... if it is a one time thing.