does your lube have enough friction

[357maximum]

[QUOTE=btroj;2642615]
Looking at MML and what Eutectic mentioning regarding needing a borderline lubricating oil could it be that we have been using too good an oil? Is a full syn 2 stroke or the ester 100 AC oil too good? Are we better off with something like a generic lithium grease and the marginally oils they use?

QUOTE]


It is the route I took, but it like skinning cats has many ways to get there I am sure. I made my wax base "weak" and "porous" and the oil/soap complex barely adequate....it worked for both MML and Satan's Lube, but I do not need a melt temp like some do.

[bruce381]

What you need is a liquid but something that will stay in a grease grove figure that one out.
So then you are stuck with a solid that stay in grease grove and handle loading that will immediately upon firing flow like a liquid.
How about a liquid impregnated piece of cotton string in the grease grove?

[btroj]

Ok Run, if I am following you then the relax point, as you call it, if a point up to a few inches from the point at which the bullet loses seal with the bore. I also gather you are saying how far depends on the formula of the lube and the temp of the barrel.

I suppose we are using the term relax point differently. I think of it as the point where the bullet relaxes in the bore, the smear comes after that point.

Two different ways of looking at the same thing.

I kind of like Mike's idea of a porous, weak wax base and a barely capable oil. Is this almost what Felix lube is? We know that castor oil is a great film lube but the amount present is minimal.

I think some ATF in a lube is a good thing. It gives some lubrication but also tends to leave little of itself behind. It also doesn't over lubricate like I think the ester 100 did.

I have some ideas I want to try but need some better weather to get out and shoot.

I got a PM from a member here who said we are making his head hurt. Worse yet he understood much of what Gear said. I warned him to stay away.

[runfiverun]

nope we are using it the same, just pointing out that the place you see the lube in the barrel and the actual relax point are two different places.

I don't think felix lube works quite that way, I believe it's more like a controlled release of a captured oil and it still relies on the wax flowing.

to fit the bill something like a soy wax, poe oil mix thickened with a dry lube would fill the bill.
gypsum is something I have been looking at for quite a while as a filler [a lifetime supply would cost about 10 bucks]
maybe non drying paste would be better term for something like that.

[btroj]

I may look at some methyl cellulose powder. I can get some that is very, very fine. Dissolves in water but won't dissolve in oils. Should work as a thickener. Chemically inert.

[geargnasher]

What Felix lube and many of the better lubes do is provide a pretty darn consistent friction characteristic between boolit and barrel under all shooting conditions and phases of the lube. Castor oil doesn't burn in the barrel, so is present always. Too much, though, and accuracy suffers. The castor provides consistent film lube, and the other ingredients don't muck it up too much while holding it and carrying it along. Mineral oils (liquid paraffin) have been show over and over to have negligible effect on bore condition, so are relatively inactive softening ingredients. Lanolin is an EP wax that adds some grab, but gets swept cleanly away during the firing event and doesn't settle out in the bore to cause fluctuations of C.O.R.E. The beeswax is fairly benign, too, when tempered with the other ingredients. Also, here's a little secret: Guess what happens when you put 10 measured tons of hydraulic pressure on Felix lube? It sweats castor bean oil. Now you know.

Bruce, you got it. In the terms I tend to think, "Extreme Lube" for all-weather, either needs to be a very high VI liquid or a slippery solid. Whatever it is, we have to find a way to put it in lube grooves and keep it there when it least wants to be (initial firing), get it to dispense going down the barrel, and finally fling off the last bits at the muzzle. It could be one more thing, and more likely will have to be, something like a modded Felix lube, Speed Green, Starmetal Lube, or Mike's dry lubes (6661 or MML) that simply have consistent friction characteristics whether frozen, liquid, thick film, thin film, rubbing against itself in a pre-fouled bore or bare steel, or under high or low pressure, or between high or low speed sliding surfaces.

We worked on this some, and I think Eutectic is still after the solution to the SUPER cold problem via solid, slippery dry lube additives that make the boolits slide down the bore like they're on a film of runny, molten owl snot on a July day in Texas, but when the lube itself and the gun (with lube fouling in the bore already) is 20 below. If the lube provides the same friction whether it melts fully or not, or is encountering hot liquid residue of itself or frozen-solid congealed residue, then it doesn't matter about viscosity, thermal coefficient, or extended/delayed phase changes in different shooting/weather conditions. The SL-series of lubes were sort of aimed in this direction because the soap is slippery when solid. I just didn't manage to get it quite right, that high soap percentage is a double-edged sword. With my wear tester I can get an idea of how a lube behaves when molten or cooled by controlling the temperature of the contact points (freezing or heating them), but I can't really measure friction with it, only wear scar/time/pressure. I may have to devise another machine to do just that, maybe as simple as a sliding block like is used for verifying CoF calculations in Physics 101 lab exercises.

I believe that consistent friction, low residuals, and easy flow from being very soft are some of the reasons that Starmetal lube worked so well. I never could duplicate the wax nor the Vaseline he used, so was never able to duplicate his recipe. Even though it got very stiff in the cold and thinned some in the heat, it always shot the same in my guns and wouldn't come close to melting on my dashboard in full summer sun.

Gear

[runfiverun]

we keep looking at the poly stuff too.
poly glycol [J-lube], polymerized oils [felix lube], poly olephin ester, and poly alphetic oils.
there has to be a poly type solid out there besides the glycol esters which are not really a carrier base. [and a pita to work with because of their caking nature over 450-f and unwillingness to bond with anything else]
they seem to really perform in temperature extremes.

[357maximum]

How about a liquid impregnated piece of cotton string in the grease grove?

Been tried with several different impregnators...all failed in one form or another. Was tried enough that I ruled out methodology of string application.....I think that some "rollover" or "rollout" Ie.. the string messing up the leading edged of the following drive band was the cause after looking at some fired bullets caught in a large swimming pool I was tearing down for a client. Could have been just a carp idea too. Still think the answer lies in the "base" using traditional "lube"...not sure what magic potion that will be however....one of you large hats will figger it out eventually. A mix of beeswax/micro/paraffin gets one close, but screwing with the percentages of the three still only gets you close.......the base is the key methinks.....find that and the actual lube will not matter....deep supposition on my part however.

[cs86]

Thought this was an interesting read. I got through most of the first page and I'm shot and need to go to bed, but I'm wondering one thing. Do longer bands on the boolit design give more consistent drag since you have more surface area riding the bore? Wondering if part of the focus should be on the boolit design for drag? Just a thought to share if it is any help at all... I'll have to read more of this earlier in the day, and learn more from you guys.

[runfiverun]

long bearing bands are well,,,, more grip on the rifling.
they do increase the engraving pressure slightly at the beginning which is not [generally] a bad thing with the amount and kinds of powder we generally use at elevated [for cast] velocity's.
I have been amazed at how much lead I can actually run down a barrel with just a small amount of lube to back it up, several times.

[Bzcraig]

I feel like I am sitting quietly at the feet of the masters to learn! I really appreciate you guys being so willing to take the time to put this in print for the rest of us to learn. Often I have to use my google-fu to understand everything written but, most importantly, I DO learn. Thanks gentlemen!

Craig

[runfiverun]

Bruce:
we can get a lube to flow almost immediately, the issue that pops up there becomes the lube blowing ahead of the boolit.
once the lube makes it to the muzzle you can most assuredly count on it being a carbon soaked mess and generally purging flyers.
I seen this happen in my 9m's last week I had some homogo lube I was/am burning up.
it took about 20 shots for it to reach the muzzle and about 30 more before I had to flush the gun out from the lube gunk in it.
that was at 35-f I'm not looking forward to seeing what happens at 90-f
on the bright side I don't have to lube those cases for reloading.
this lube might be a good candidate for the gypsum bolstering.....

[smokeywolf]

Is there an ideal or optimal point in the boolit's travel down the barrel that you want that relaxation point to occur? Like maybe in the last 1 to 2 centimeters before exiting the muzzle?

smokeywolf

[gon2shoot]

Good thread,but now you got me thinking. Too windy to mess around outside, the wife ain't gonna be happy with you.

[leftiye]

What you need is a liquid but something that will stay in a grease grove figure that one out.
So then you are stuck with a solid that stay in grease grove and handle loading that will immediately upon firing flow like a liquid.
How about a liquid impregnated piece of cotton string in the grease grove?

Sounds like simple green. I like the idea of an oil in a carrier, and stop. I believe the carrier is the problem, as it has to leave the oil behind and not the carrier. And you have to worry about getting the right oil that doesn't turn into varnish, and you have to have it not leave too much, and, and,and......

[leftiye]

Good thread,but now you got me thinking. Too windy to mess around outside, the wife ain't gonna be happy with you.

They really do think we're pets (go lay down by your bowl and lick your cashews). It's not about us having a life, it's about you moved the pillows on the sofa you bad boy. And heaven forbid anything that doesn't smell like perfume should be smelled (Spanish noblemen on the galleys of the Armada?)

[44man]

44man, if purge flyers are caused by bullets too soft then why do some lines give them at temps over 90 but not at 70 degrees? Bullets all from same batch. I think the lube becomes too soft, loses viscosity and it leaves too much oil and too behind it in the bore.

I will say that revolvers and rifles have hugely different lube demands. The revolver has that pesky cylinder gap that changes everything. A rifle allows for seating a bullet into the lands, pretty tough in a revolver. Notice I didn't say handguns, a single shot or auto loader is more like a rifle than a revolver.

Not sure yet is if the rifle needs a different lube of course all my cast rifle shooting was done long ago until I just started with another one. Yes, most of what I do is with revolvers. Lube blown ahead of the boolit is a bigger problem in a revolver but as long the tiny pores in the metal are kept filled (Lube function) and the rest is removed ahead of the boolit so the bore maintains an even condition for the next shot, it does not matter too much unless there is a total loss of friction. Loss of friction or should I say a change from shot to shot is no good in any gun.
Purge from the bore of excess lube and fouling by the boolit has to be there every shot.
Some lubes do not hold up and straight Alox and SPG are two I will not use. SPG always failed after so much barrel length so a dry patch would need pounded through, both leave undesirable junk in the bore to be run over. You can see the affects of a poor lube with leading and even lead plated gas checks. Running over that junk in the bore opens gas ports.
The same thing was happening with moly coated jacketed bullets, it would build up in the bore and was the devil to remove. Then the lube powder that was put on top of the gun powder to increase velocity and seal but it seems to have gone away. Teflon will also build in the bore.
Same as grease cookies, lubed wads and any type of wad for BP cartridge. Except for a filler, they are not needed and bare powder at the boolit base shoots the same. My conclusion is there is not much of anything needs laid down behind a boolit.
I don't know a thing about chemistry and think more in mechanical ideas. It is good there are many really working at it here but there is a thing about it all. When it gets to the point you can't buy ingredients or it gets too hard to make the lube or it costs more then it is worth---WHAT END?

[44man]

Now, I do a lot of lube testing for accuracy. There is a huge difference in groups between one and another along with changes in the POI. But normally I don't see much increase in fliers, just an overall increase in groups.
Too soft has been the flier king and i can use the same lube in the same boolit on the same day and watch fliers go away as I harden the boolits but once too hard it is not worth the trouble.
You contend with skid, slump, uneven starts, and even a complete compression of the lube grooves before the boolit is entirely in the bore.
Even jacketed if not in line with the bore, will not straighten out, rifle or whatever. What chance does bare lead have? Have any of you checked the run out on your cast loads? Have you checked brass run out?
So with all the lube testing being done, there is something you MUST have first. The boolit must be right, from shape, length for twist, velocity and alloy for the gun before you can make the decision about a lube. The powder can't be changed so you can't dump Red Dot in your 06 and then try 4350.
Only one variable should be in play, the weather.
There is my mechanical contribution. Remember, lube testing needs accuracy first, not like the guy that wants to become an expert but his gun can only do 10" at 20 yards.

[geargnasher]

44Man, I maintain that soft lube isn't a problem, even in revolvers, it's slippery soft, oily/greasy lube that gives flyers and big groups. There are some very soft, very "dry" lubes that I've made and tried, among them SL-62 which was only canning paraffin, Ivory soap, and Vaseline in equal parts. That lube leaves no oily residue in the action, bore, or on the outside of revolvers, and no powder fouling. It liquifies under pressure and blows out cleanly. The only problem with it is the soap can accumulate in the first part of the barrel on rifles and accuracy gets erratic after a few shots unless you use a compacting buffer behind the boolit that keeps the heat off the boolit and swabs out the residue each shot.

Gear

[runfiverun]

smokey:
that's a tough question.
from what I have seen, and the reports I have gotten back, about 3/4 the way down the barrel is where it occurs in most rifles [and lever guns too] using what we/i consider 'normal' cast loads.
quite often you'll not see a smear of lube, but will pick up antimonial wash.
this I believe is caused by the pressure not being quite high enough to force the boolit out into the rifling.
if you notice 44 man's fix is to harden the boolit in his revolvers.
it is so he can maintain the boolits integrity all the way through the sequence and skip the relax point altogether.
he also uses a fairly sticky wettish lube.
he rides the borderline between too wet and too hard/soft all the while seeking out the best accuracy from his revolvers by riding that line.
I have done the same thing with the rcbs 30-165 silhouette boolit.
increasing the hardness and slightly softening the lube did show an increase in accuracy.
I still couldn't increase the velocity though.