does your lube have enough friction

[felix]

3 decades as an engineer/R&D machinist taught me that R&D should actually be expressed as T&E; for trial & error. smokeywolf

Time and Expense......Travel (memory) and Entertainment ... felix

[felix]

I need to spend some dollars soon and get a few more waxes.

Ah so! What a fun statement to play with. Hydrogenate an oil, a wax appears. Hydrogenate a wax, another wax appears which in most cases becomes significantly different than the previous level. Some levels of hydrogenation actually turn a wax into a wax with "oil" properties. The best example we typically have is Jojoba oil, which by chemical definition is a wax. So, the question begs, why not continue the path selecting waxes having oil properties and see what happens to our lubes? I wish I could provide some things to try that you guys already haven't. ... felix

Just thought of one: See if we can find a version of castor wax that has oil properties? That is something I have not pursued in the past, but prolly this is the time to do so. Castor oil extends the boolit's accuracy (rifle) much like copper does in an alloy, perhaps as much as 300 fps in some ammo compositions. Hopefully, we can find a more general replacement for the castor OIL which would extend the ambient conditions of the lube dramatically. ... felix

[geargnasher]

Read the review at the bottom of the page:

http://www.newdirectionsaromatics.co...kes-p-614.html

Interesting stuff.

Gear

[felix]

Jump on it, Brad! ... felix

[44man]

This whole post is like asking what BBQ ribs are best. Drop any in front of me and watch them go away.
Now we have guys shooting corn biscuits out of guns--or is that corn pone?
Still a great amount of knowledge to absorb but I see no solution in the end.

[felix]

I was just thinking, Jim, your applications are perfectly satisfied with the BBQ you already have on hand, or can make on demand. There is no way we can outshoot you, so there is no way we can prove one lube is better than another for your apps. ... felix

[btroj]

I ordered some from a different place, that one is in Canada so delivery was gonna be slower and they have a 20 dollar admin fee for orders under 100 dollars.

Now to order some microwax from blended waxes

[btroj]

I have on order enough microwax and paraffin to make a bunch of MML or whatever. I think I can lube the entire state of Nebraska once I am done.

[runfiverun]

I remember some of my [feeble] attempts at some hydrogenation.
not knowing exactly what it was or entailed I think I was doomed at the start.
it did however teach me some [shoulda known] lessons about temperature and chemical reactions.
something super simple like castor wax or even safflower wax might be a workable solution.
they could even work with no alterations or just a wax combination.

the stuff the commercial guy's use is really nothing more than micro-wax and some carnuba
it does the job just fine in many applications.
carnuba red is nothing more than a blend of waxes also and it covers the basic temp window too.

I think we learned that a minimum of oil seems to work very well because it's easier to control, I really think the oils are nothing much more than the bore conditioner we need and sometimes act as a modifier to the waxes. [the flow thing again]

[btroj]

Something like castor wax, Vaseline, and beeswax? Would the castor wax add that small bit of slick we need but not leave an oily residue behind?

I also ordered some cetyl alcohol which is listed as a thickener for emulsions. It is a solid so it won't add wet stuff but might well help make a soft lube harder without adding tons of wax or soap.

Maybe a TnT type lube without the soap or at least a max of 10 percent soap. Hmmmmm

[Elkins45]

Does a thickener need to be a wax? If 2 cycle oil alone is a good lube then all we need is an invisible carrier. I'm reminded of the great physics debate of the last century when scientists "invented" an invisible substance that filled the universe (luminiferous ether) so light waves could travel through it. We need a luminiferous ether for oils.

Guar gum? Sawdust? Corn starch?

Maybe kaolinite dust, or is it too abrasive? It would certainly hold the oil well. Saturated kitty litter as a lube? Not sure I want to send clay dust down my barrel, but if it is soft enough it wouldn't have the scorching problem that has been predicted for my corn starch experiment.

[btroj]

Gear did a fair bit of testing with dry additives, the results weren't real promising if I recall correctly. I think some were leading machines!

I am leaning more towards an oil free formula. The oils are what give the be purging issues so reducing them or eliminating them takes care of that. If we can use castor wax instead of castor oil we win, but does it have the lube abilities?

I will mix some castor wax with some other stuff and see how it does.

I also am getting an emulsifier/thickener that might help. We can use it to help tie up oils and do so without the soap levels that cause problems.

I personally don't think dry ingredients offer what we need. The negatives outweigh the positives.

[Eutectic]

pete.
the question is.
does that hbn coating maintain itself once it's seasoned, or does it build up?
having a slight load change isn't a big deal..... if it is a one time thing.

Lamar,

With a treated bore, (one wet patch Dex III & Varsol, one dry) then by 5 rounds my hBN (1.5%) test loads are grouping well @ 14º testing. By 20 rounds the groups open double and don't get any better again until I treat the bore as above. When treated, a lot of black gunk comes out. There is 8% castor oil in this formula.... But I've shot more (8.8%) at -4ºF (Polybutene Felix) without the fall off like this.

I'm not sure if the hBN is treating the bore.... Maybe.... But the simple bore treatment above removes it all and allows testing something else...

I read somewhere that a guy was treating cast boolits with just the hBN powder and shooting them with good results ??? Handgun I think?

I might try the hBN in a tumble lube like 45-45-10. Be sumthin' if that became "Extreme" huh??

Eutectic

[btroj]

Pete, if you find something that works at all temps and it uses Alox I will laugh as I watch Ian eat some!

Does the HBN "deposit" seem to be concentration related? Does it work fine in low levels and cause issues as concentration increases?

I do think it is interesting that you are still using Alox to keep the other oils from getting too wild. Maybe the rest of us are missing something.....

[Eutectic]

Brad.... 1.5% is as low as I've gone with hBN..... Maybe 1% would do better? hBN has disappointed me every time.. (This is my third attempt)

The wax Ian found might be interesting.... BUT

I forgot about Ian's promise to 'eat crow' (raw wasn't it?) if Alox is in the final "Extreme" Lube! And I just had an idea

Eutectic

[geargnasher]

Someone here uses hBN over straight LLA to kill the tack. Seemed to work fine in pistols.

Elkins45, I've BTDT with regard to carriers other than wax, I'm all out of ideas. Just start naming stuff, I've probably tried it. As I mentioned on the first page, any carrier composed of solids fails the blowby/runover test. Brings new meaning to the term "lube smear". Hopefully you can come up with something I haven't tried, or give us a new direction to go. The only thing that worked consistently is an oil-saturated felt wad behind the boolit, a waxed-paper disc under that, and Dacron behind that.

Brad, I didn't order from there.....

Gear

[357maximum]

I also ordered some cetyl alcohol which is listed as a thickener for emulsions. It is a solid so it won't add wet stuff but might well help make a soft lube harder without adding tons of wax or soap.

Hmmmmm

Cetyl alcohol is a key ingredient in what makes the old Young Country Lube and Fiebings Mink Oil PASTE work so good for patched roundball in a fronstuffer using real bp....not sure how that would correlate over to smokeless "greaser" boolits at HV........might be a good course to follow......I love the smell of it, it would be cool if it works, but I think it is in the muzzleloader lube to provide/suck up moisture to keep fouling soft......might make a more consistent bore if moisture is maintained........I DO NOT KNOW, but I look forward to your reports.

[btroj]

Mike, you know we will report everything in all it's gory details!

[357maximum]

Mike, you know we will report everything in all it's gory details!

Cetyl alcohol smells so "clean" it would be nice if it pans out......even if it means Ian does not have to eat alox battered crow.

[btroj]

Alox. Yum. Bet it works great as a laxative, proof of lube purging!

The cetyl/steryl alcohol was labeled as a thickener. I like the idea of something other than soap or lots of wax as a thickener. I figure that I will add 2 to 5 percent.

Knowing it has use in BP lubes it tells me that it does fine in the bore and isn't harmful. I like that.