Annealing...

[BCB]

Don't know where to put this question...

But, can one anneal brass by simply heating it and letting it air-cool...

OR must it be cooled quickly by putting it in water after the neck has been heated?...

Thanks...BCB

[s mac]

Look at my thread on the next page,Question on Annealing, I got some good info. I don't know how to give a link,.

[Love Life]

You can air cool as long as the case head doesn't get to hot. I like to water quench in water with citric acid as it removes any scaling and majority of coloring. The brass looks like it was never touched with a flame after you tumble...

Get some tempilaq. 750 degree for inside the case neck, and 400-450 for the bas of the case. Apply to a couple pieces of brass, run them trough the torch, and see how fast the heat transfers and how hot. If you can reach the 750degrees without the 400-450 tempilaq turning when air cooling then cool. If not then quench. To be honest I would just quench it anyway.

[KAF]

If brass is heated to 750* it then is not any good, way to soft and some of the good alloy is gone.
Heat to where there is only a slight blueish color, Air cooling is sufficient.

http://www.6mmbr.com/annealing.html

[Love Life]

That article says 750 degrees for a few seconds is legit.

The trick is to heat the neck just to the point where the grain structure becomes sufficiently large enough to give the case a springy property, leaving the body changed but little, and the head of the case virtually unchanged.

"If cases are heated to about 600 degrees (F) for one hour, they will be thoroughly annealed--head and body included. That is, they will be ruined. (For a temperature comparison, pure lead melts at 621.3 degrees F).

The critical time and temperature at which the grain structure reforms into something suitable for case necks is 662 degrees (F) for some 15 minutes. A higher temperature, say from 750 to 800 degrees, will do the same job in a few seconds. If brass is allowed to reach temperatures higher than this (regardless of the time), it will be made irretrievably and irrevocably too soft."

[ElDorado]

If brass is heated to 750* it then is not any good, way to soft and some of the good alloy is gone.
Heat to where there is only a slight blueish color, Air cooling is sufficient.

http://www.6mmbr.com/annealing.html

When he describes the actions of his machine-

"With this setup, the neck will actually reach a temperature between 750 and 800 degrees. Remember, it's the combination of time AND temperature that does the job. We have raised the temperature sufficiently to be able to anneal the case necks in 6 to 8 seconds."

[jonk]

If I had a fine machine like the one on the 6mm bench rest site, where I was sure heat was even and consistent, bases were in a heat sink, well then I would anneal my brass quite regularly.

As it is: It's hard to get a consistent even heating unless you use heat control paste. Uneven heating leads to uneven bullet release or if you overheat, crumpled necks. So I anneal: -black powder cartridges for my Henry 1860 repro; it's a real pain to clean out the action of black powder fouling, and the softer necks help seal things up. -Oddball brass I don't want to lose, as it is pricey- 11 mm Mauser, 8mm Kropatschek, that sort of thing.

Otherwise I don't bother. With 30-06 brass and stuff, when the neck cracks, it either gets reformed to another cartridge that is shorter with the same head size, or if that's not possible, put in the bucket for recycling.

[BattleRife]

If brass is heated to 750* it then is not any good, way to soft and some of the good alloy is gone.
http://www.6mmbr.com/annealing.html

This is not really true, and the linked article does not say any such thing. They do say that 950F will make the cases too soft, but I'm not sure I buy that, either. I see no mention of references in that article to suggest the temperature numbers they use are anything other than guesses they pulled out of thin air. Most of them appear to be based on ASM Handbook type data, all of which was generated in laboratory furnace experiments involving 1 hour annealing tests. As the article touches on, annealing is time-temperature dependant and 1 hour data doesn't mean much to those of who anneal for seconds.

I did an experiment where I severely work hardened the necks of some .308 Win brass, annealed them at various temperatures for 5 seconds, seated a bullet and placed them in a sealed plastic pail with a little water and ammonia-bearing Windex. The work hardened case necks started cracking, as exected, Those cases annealed at 400C and lower cracked within 60 days. Those annealed at 450C or above did not. Therefore I consider 450C (840F) the minimum temperature for annealing brass cases. I usually aim for the range of 500C-550C for about 4 seconds. That is 930-1020F. I have seen no evidence that my brass is "too soft".

[Scharfschuetze]

Nicely done experiment BattleRifle. Quite illuminating in regards to the visual differences in annealing temperatures and the efficacy of the different temps.

While I have no idea what temperature or flame duration Lake City used/uses to anneal their cases, this M118 match load shows a distinct annealing ring below the shoulder that is similar to your 550 temp round above. While this is the older match round, current M80 Ball and M118 Special Ball and M852 Match 7.62 rounds all show this same annealing line and it is very consistent from round to round. It is also seen on the full range of 5.56mm and 50 Cal rounds produced at US arsenals.

I believe that US commercial ammo would also show this or a similar annealing ring were it not polished after annealing.

[Love Life]

Very good read and experiment BattleRife. I anneal using MAPP gas and 750F tempilaq. I get the same coloration on my brass as your 500C annealed brass. My current .243 brass is on 10 reloads with two annealings.

Interesting indeed.

[C. Latch]

I'm curious: I've been wanting to learn how to anneal and experimented some this weekend (too cold to shoot) with a torch, cordless screwdriver and sockets, and some brass that I had culled while sorting. Most of it was going to be thrown out anyway.

I purposely heated a couple of pieces to bright red, just to see how long it took (used .17hmr cases, couldn't do anything with them anyway). I was surprised at how long that took.

I then heated several cases until I just began to get a color change - a very light blue discoloration. Nowhere near glowing. When I later rinsed them in citric acid they came out with the 'annealed' part (top 3/8") more pink than the rest of the case. I assume that's a sign that I did something - leaving some zinc on the case surface, I suppose - but how do I tell how much I did?

I did several cases this way then belled them in an expander die, and noticed that they went into and out of the die with very light (i.e. hard to feel) pressure.

Apart from using tempilaq, do my result sound normal? The cases that I wanted to save, they did NOT turn red, even for a moment. For someone just learning, should I load them with light loads and fire them just to make note of how easily they expand to seal the chamber?

[ElDorado]

Light loads probably won't expand the cases.

Did you read the article in KAF's post? It's got a lot of good information. I now use tempilaq, but I have used the method described in the last two paragraphs of that article (the part that Rich DeSimone wrote) with fairly good results without tempilaq. Be sure to be in a dark room, at night, if you try it. I didn't use CLR, either. I either dropped them in water or air cooled them, depending on my mood at the time.

[C. Latch]

Did you read the article in KAF's post? It's got a lot of good information.

Multiple times over the last several weeks while contemplating this. It's the first link that shows up on any search of annealing brass.

I've read tons of stuff, but there are people in this thread who seem to have a degree of disagreement with the articles I've read, and I wanted to hear both sides.

[Doc Highwall]

One of the reasons you get a disagreement is what is the purpose of the person doing the annealing. Some of us just want to extend the life of our brass and are not interested in accuracy only case life.

Others are interested in accuracy formost and how annealing affects consistant bullet pull/start pressure and it's affect on accuracy. Accuracy is going to require a more involved set up that is repeatable using a dedicated annealing machine.

[BCB]

O.K.

I started this thread and I am getting some answers...

Now then, if I can take the brass and push the case mouth again something hard, with reasonable pressure and not brute force, and the mouth bends, is the brass TOO soft--TOO much annealed? (Is that a word?)

Thanks...BCB

[runfiverun]

the trick is to not burn out the zinc.
all annealing does is re-align the molecules in a more forgiving way so they can retain flexibility without tearing the base components apart.
time is not a factor in annealing brass, temperature is the deciding factor, 800-f is 800-f,
it don't matter if it's for 1 second or 10.
I strive for the look in the picture above, i use an annealing machine [and air cool] but don't use temp-Ilaq or anything else as an indicator.
I judge results by the finished products looks and performance.
I count on each case having the same amount of anneal rather than the exact perfect temperature.

[felix]

Actually, it's the time under the temperature-time curve which provides the amount of anneal. But, that is a lie also. Accuracy depends on the brass to be exact in all dimensions, including thermal. The lie comes into play when anealing brass in an unknown state. BR folks (in the know) do not anneal; they use brand new cases after about 10 shots or so. ... felix

[ElDorado]

O.K.

I started this thread and I am getting some answers...

Now then, if I can take the brass and push the case mouth again something hard, with reasonable pressure and not brute force, and the mouth bends, is the brass TOO soft--TOO much annealed? (Is that a word?)

Thanks...BCB

I don't know if there is a way to test your cases to see if they are too soft. I always try to stick to the guidelines of annealing at 700 - 800 degrees F and if they look similar to Sharfshuetzer's photo of match ammo, then I'll use them. If the necks don't split, then I've met my goal.

I have a 35 Remington and a 6.5 Carcano that have case splitting problems, and those are the ones I anneal most. I have annealed a lot of 30-06 to help when converting them to other cartridges. And it doesn't hurt to take any extra cases you have and practice and experiment, just remember to crush your experiments in a vise so you or someone else doesn't load questionable brass. I also like to make sure the cases are clean with no lube or other matter on them.

[ElDorado]

Multiple times over the last several weeks while contemplating this. It's the first link that shows up on any search of annealing brass.

I've read tons of stuff, but there are people in this thread who seem to have a degree of disagreement with the articles I've read, and I wanted to hear both sides.

As far as the pink in the annealed area after cleaning, I'm not sure. I know I've had cases turn pink during cleaning experiments, and it's usually a case that is brown with patina that's been soaked in vinegar or phosphoric acid. I've heard that the pink is a result of the zinc leaching or corroding out of the surface of the brass, leaving a visible layer of copper. I don't know if that's true, I'm just passing on what I've read.

And I don't know if testing your brass with a flaring tool will tell you much, since there are so many variables that can affect that. A soft case, a thin case, and even a short case will take less effort to flare than normal.

Like I just mentioned to BCB, I don't think there is a test that the average guy can perform that proves his annealing method is sound. The results will be seen when your cases stop splitting, or when you squeeze that 270 brass into an 8 mm.

[C. Latch]

As far as the pink in the annealed area after cleaning, I'm not sure. I know I've had cases turn pink during cleaning experiments, and it's usually a case that is brown with patina that's been soaked in vinegar or phosphoric acid. I've heard that the pink is a result of the zinc leaching or corroding out of the surface of the brass, leaving a visible layer of copper. I don't know if that's true, I'm just passing on what I've read.

And I don't know if testing your brass with a flaring tool will tell you much, since there are so many variables that can affect that. A soft case, a thin case, and even a short case will take less effort to flare than normal.

Like I just mentioned to BCB, I don't think there is a test that the average guy can perform that proves his annealing method is sound. The results will be seen when your cases stop splitting, or when you squeeze that 270 brass into an 8 mm.

Thanks!

Based on what I'm reading, I'm confident that I'm headed in the right direction here. I'd *like* to be perfectly consistent, but realize that isn't going to happen.

I currently only actively load for two rifles and I don't shoot either of them enough for this to be an issue right now, nor do I forsee shooting any other rifles in the near future to the point that annealing cases becomes an issue.

The main caliber I want to work with is .45 Colt. I know brass can last a long, long time, but I have some loads that I crimp HARD and I know that'll kill my case mouths. I also know that if I get the brass too soft I'll lose the tension I need for consistent ignition. I suppose that at the end of the day, I've read all I need to read; I won't know anything else until I get some annealed cases loaded up and shoot them and see what happens.