12 gauge round ball diameter consensus? AND load with no wad?

[weweber3]

Is there any consensus on a round ball mold for 12 gauge?

Additionally... any load details to load a round ball with NO wad... perhpas with just a felt/cork/other spacer between the powder and ball?

Something that would give pie plate accuracy at 25-50 yards.

Ideas?

[Ithaca Gunner]

Maybe not exactly what you're looking for, but my buck and ball load is plenty accurate at 30yds using Remington STS Premier hulls, Winchester primers, 23 gr. of Unique, and BPI Brush wads to cradle the buck shot and .69 round ball. Shot off a bench with an Ithaca '37 smooth bore Deer Slayer barrel with rifle sights. The brush wad and ball are next to the hull in the second picture. I've loaded some minus the buckshot, but haven't tried them yet.

[pipehand]

Ithaca Gunner, doesn't that Deerslayer have a tighter than "normal" bore? IIRC, they usually measure at .700"ish for better accuracy with Foster style slugs. Most other American shotguns run around .730". That may explain your success with the .690" ball when those shooting Remingtons and Mossbergs report dismal results. What's the slug on the right in the second pic, and how are you loading it?

Weweber3, check for posts by Longbow. He's been working with a .735" rb with hard wads. You're going to need more than a piece of felt as a gas seal under the ball, with something stiff to keep the wad from wrapping itself around the wad. And to bring the ball up to crimp height. Tommiegirl posted about a drilling jig she made to drill centered holes in nitro wads to center roundballs. Is you desire to use a felt or cork spacer as opposed to a plastic wad due to environmental concerns?

Myself, I've had good results with a .678" ball in Winchester and Federal wads. I haven't played with full bore slugs or balls, but I did recently turn a section of scrap 12 gauge barrel into a wad punch so I can make my own card wads.

I typed in "12 gauge round ball" at this link:
https://www.google.com/cse/home?cx=0...69:ggn3vg-bjum
and got a slew of hits on this site.

Do you know the diameter of your shotgun's bore? Is it choked? Does it have interchangeable chokes? What's the purpose of the shell you intend to load, once you dispatch all those feral pie plates?

[longbow]

In my experience, 0.662", 0.678" and 0.735" ball all work well when loaded appropriately and can give groups of 4" or less at 50 yards.

I choose those balls because they are stock mould sizes and readily available. The 0.662" is a bit undersize except in steel shot wads or very thick petal wads so has to be shimmed or patched up a bit. 0.678" is a good fit in many standard wads like Winchester yellow, white and pink. These I load over at least one nitro card wad and a small scoop of COW to support the wad so it doesn't wrap around the ball.

The 0.735" ball is somewhat over bore diameter but there is little meat at the equator of a ball and they swage down easily (even ACWW). These I load over a plastic over powder gas seal then 1/2" hard card wad column built to crimp height with the ball so possibly a nitro card wad on top or another half a hard card wad depending on hull and powder charge.

Of course the 0.735" ball cannot be shot through any choke constriction at all.

Any of those three balls loaded appropriately should stay well under minute of pie plate at 25 yards and most likely well past 50 yards.

Some folks have had good success with the 0.690" ball as well but I am not one. The biggest benefit of 0.690" is that Lee moulds are available in 0.690" and Lee moulds are very inexpensive.

Best size all round for easy loading and good accuracy is 0.678" since it fits standard shotcups well with no patching/shimming. just drop in a couple of 16 or 20 ga. nitro card wads, a small scoop of COW then the ball. You are good to go. Also the 0.678" ball weighs just slightly over 1 oz. so any 1oz. to 1 1/8 oz. shot load or any 1 oz. slug load data can be used with the ball as slug substitute. Lyman and RCBS make 0.678" ball moulds.

It works for me anyway.

Longbow

[weweber3]

I wanted to have a "primative" ball load that didnt need a wad that might be out of stock, hard to find or go out of production.

That's where the felt/cork power-piston replacement idea came to mind.

[weweber3]

I have an 870 that has interchangeable chokes. That is the primary firearm for this application. It has a rem modified choke currently... no other chokes. But would buy if appropriate to make this work.

[longbow]

If the gun is choked you need a ball that will fit through the choke so bore size ball is out unless you bought a cylinder choke tube. Then I would say it is hard to beat that 0.735" ball. That could be loaded over a hard card wad column with nothing special. A 0.735" ball weighs about 1 3/8 oz.

If you want to keep the modified choke then you need a ball that will fit through that choke so undersize for the bore. Then you need to keep the undersize ball centered to get any sort of accuracy.

You might try making donut wads to center the ball. Simply punch or drill some nitro card wads or felt wads so that the ball sits in the hole 1 one donut wad under and one over the ball should keep it centered. In that case a 0.690" ball should work and as mentioned, Lee moulds are available and inexpensive.

So, a nitro card wad or two over the powder, a 1/2" hard card wad, donut wad, ball, donut wad, crimp should work okay.

I have built card wad columns with no plastic gas seal but found they tended to "leak" at least with slower powders. There is a noticeable downgrade in performance taking a load recipe that calls for plastic gas seal and replacing the plastic gas seal with nitro card wads.

If you use the donut wad approach, the modified choke should not be an issue. Also, if you use donut wads, the size of ball isn't too important as long as it will fit through the choke. Balls of 0.662" to 0.690" are appealing to me because there is so much load data for that weight range. When you get much above about 550 grs. load data seems to be scarce unless you stick to use shot loads which is fine but they tend to be low performance for slugs.

It is doable but you will have to pick a ball size then play a bit to sort out wad columns and crimp height.

tommygirl poster her plans for her jig to drill nitro card wads to make donut wads, if you do a search. I prefer to load balls into shotcups simply for ease of loading.

If you want to be independent and make your own card wads you can get a 3/4" gasket punch to punch out card wads but it is tedious and time consuming. It is a viable option if components are not available though. I suspect that they would not seal as well as commercial nitro card wads but should be adequate if required.

As a last comment, I think the 0.662" or 0.678" balls are likely your best bet as they fit standard shotcups and can also be inserted into factory 1 oz. or 1 1/8 oz. shot loads by removing the shot. So when components or loaded rounds are available these balls make life easy. If components or loaded rounds aren't available then you could go the donut wad route with either as well and they will both fit through any choke down to standard full. The 0.678" ball may shear petals off the wads but there should be no choke damage. I say should because the ball is under choke diameter but I have not tried shooting them through a full choked gun.

That's all I've got.

Longbow

[weweber3]

Longbow - awesome information.

So...

.735 + nitro cards to achieve good crimp... will work in cylinder choke/barrel

Lee .690 ball + nitro card wads + donut wads to center... will work in the 870 with modified choke

.662 and .678 + wads + card to achieve good crimp.... will work in modified or cylinder choke



BPI claims their nitro cards wads can be used directly between powder and shot. I assume between powder and ball is ok too?
"Nitro cards are used as a seal or space between the powder and the plastic wad or directly underneath shot. They can be used in place of a plastic shotcup in many retro-style and English game loads."

So that brings to question, is there anyway to make your own "thick" nitro cards?

Also - just looked at those .678 moulds.... whoa buddy... $70-100+ http://www.midwayusa.com/find?newcat...mensionid=5685

[Ithaca Gunner]

Pipehand, you're right about the Ithaca Deer Slayer barrels being tighter, they introduced it in 1959 with it's straight bored, .700" i.d. smoothbore barrel with rifle sights, and as intended, it gave great accuracy with the slugs of the day. The projectile in the right side of the photo sitting on top of a gas seal is a 770gr. 12 ga. "boolit" intended for rifled barrels. It's dia. is .731" and is best loaded in 3" shells with a roll crimp over Blue Dot, or another slower burning powder. The mold is available from Accurate Molds. There are several threads here about this very same mold and projectile by, oldandslow. FWIT the middle projectile is a .58 Minie in one of Ed Hubble's sabots, again best loaded in 3" hulls and fired from a rifled barrel.

[W.R.Buchanan]

I have had decent success with a 422 gr .662 RB above a 1/4" felt wad, in my normal trap loads of Win AA or even Universal Hulls with 19 gr of Green Dot and a Claybuster WAA12 style wad.

I posted pics of the wad with ball and felt wad several times.

The only difference between this and my standard Trap load is the payload. It is simple and easy to shoot, running about 1150 fps.

The .662 ball along with.032 petals on the wad adds up to .726 which is just under the .730 bore of my M500.

I had to make a minor adjustment to the crimp function on my Pacific DL266 loader and this actually improved the crimp on my shot loads as well.

Going to shoot some tomorrow to sight the gun in with the new sights I installed, and then use it in a 3 Gun Shoot this Sunday.

Randy

[weweber3]

I have had decent success with a 422 gr .662 RB above a 1/4" felt wad, in my normal trap loads of Win AA or even Universal Hulls with 19 gr of Green Dot and a Claybuster WAA12 style wad.

I posted pics of the wad with ball and felt wad several times.

The only difference between this and my standard Trap load is the payload. It is simple and easy to shoot, running about 1150 fps.

The .662 ball along with.032 petals on the wad adds up to .726 which is just under the .730 bore of my M500.

I had to make a minor adjustment to the crimp function on my Pacific DL266 loader and this actually improved the crimp on my shot loads as well.

Going to shoot some tomorrow to sight the gun in with the new sights I installed, and then use it in a 3 Gun Shoot this Sunday.

Randy

Cylinder choke?

[longbow]

Yeah, a 0.678" or 0.662' ball mould from Lyman or RCBS will cost a bit. It is too bad Lee doesn't make anything close except the 0.690" ball.

Now, having said that, there is nothing wrong with the 0.690" ball and donut wad. It should work well if the ball is kept centered in the bore. My main use is ball in shotcup and those 0.690's are just a bit bit.

Something else you might look at are the primitive moulds at Track Of The Wolf. They have a variety of sizes and the price runs about $40.

http://www.trackofthewolf.com/List/Item.aspx/1195/1

They show a 0.680" which would work well in shotcup or using donut wads. The 0.710" would be okay in cylinder bore or I/C choke (my Browning slug barrel is 0.710" I/C choke).

I suggest a couple of nitro card wads over the powder then a 1/2" hard card wad then nitro card wads or other spacer to set crimp height. Not sure how a thick stack of nitro card wads would work. What I can say is that in my experience, fiber wads do not work well. I figured with good gas seal, hard card wad then fiber wad to set crimp height the fiber wad would crush and form a nice seat but accuracy was poor for me. I get better results using all hard card wads.

You could probably laminate cardboard or heavy paper using Elmer's glue to get around 1/8" thick then use a sharpened hole saw (teeth ground off) in a drill press to cut them out. A punch and hammer might work but would be WORK.

Also, there is a difference in being able to make something that works well enough for a survival situation and something that is top notch. Buy the nitro card wads when you can and but be able to make if you have to.

Same with plastic wads ~ I like to shoot and I am lazy so I like to load balls and slugs into plastic shotcups because it is fast and easy. If for some reason I could not get plastic shotcups I can make what I need to be able to shoot... as long as powder and primers are available anyway. If not then there is the bow.

Longbow

[AlaskanGuy]

Is slugging the bore, just like I do it with a rifle or wheelgun??? Start at the reciever end though??? And measure what you can pound through???

AG

[longbow]

In short, yup!

However, I don't think you would want to "pound through" anything too substantial. Also, if you have a choke you need to push the slugging slug back out through the breech. A 0.735" ball would be about ideal because they swage to bore diameter really easy then just pop it back out. The choke (if you have one) you can measure with inside mic, vernier or again, a slug pushed through then mic'd.

Longbow

[doubledown]

Longbow, I just wanted to put my 2 cents in. I was looking for a custom size round ball mold and having a hard time finding one. Then someone recommended Larry Callahan (he is a super nice guy), he makes bagmolds, and will make ANY roundball diameter you want, and they are inexpensive.

The only downside is its a single mold, but it even has its own sprue cutter built into the handle. I just thought I would put that out there, because having the perfect size ball for your Shotgun can make all the difference in the world. I always hated settling for the "closest fit"

he's at bagmolds.com

[6pt-sika]

I wanna at some point arrive at roundball diameters for the 10 , 12 , 16 and 20 gauges .

BUT ........................ ,

I want diameters that'll sit inside the Remington SP wads in each gauge and go thru a full choke in the different gauges yet not cut the petals on the wads and still be accurate enough at maybe 35-40 yards to kill deer .

Mind you I do not want to use these as my only means of killing deer but rather kill a deer with each gun using roundballs after I've done them all with variouse home loaded bcukshot .

Between the four gauges I have close to two dozen guns I'd like to kill deer using first buckshot and then later round balls . So I might not live long enough to do what I have in mind .

[6pt-sika]

This thread and the whole concept has me thinking when I get home in mid March I wanna try some factory loaded Foster slugs in a couple Browning Superposed 12 gauge guns and see how they do . If the two 12's do okay with factory loaded Fosters out to say 40 yards I may very well try those two guns next year loaded with the Fosters during the Danage Control Season . One of the guns is skeet and skeet . I suspect that one will do nicely . The other is a Superposed Magnum choked Mod and Full that one may well not do as well . Have a pair of 20 gauge Superposed as well ones S/S and the others IC/M . I suspect that one will also do fairly well with factory Foster slugs but I just need the time to find out for real .

[JimP.]

1871 H & R Ultra 12 bore rifled gun. 3 inch plastic case, 160 grains Pyrodex volumn measured, 1 inch of fiber wads .730 round ball 1600 fps. JimP.

[longbow]

Another option for custom round ball moulds at good prices is Jeff tanner in the UK:

http://www.jt-bullet-moulds.co.uk/

He will make whatever size you want so all you have to do is figure out what size(s) fit your needs. Had I known about Jeff when I bought my Lyman 0.735" ball mould I likely would have bought a Tanner 0.732" ball mould.

I don't have one (yet) but others have said very good quality and service, and good price.

Longbow

[weweber3]

This seems to be close to a perfect solution as I can find the initial problem I laid out... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGVZVFL2Pow

WinAA Hull
.690 Lee Round Ball
Gas Seal
1/4" Felt Wad
3/8" Felt Wad
29.7 grains of Unique

He says it produces about 1250-1275fps and kicks a ton.

Longbow stated that no wad and only felt wads or cards will leak and reduce fps and consistency... and I agree. But it seems I could load this up with felt only in a pinch.

Good conversation everyone... thanks.