Who knows mold design history?

[Wayne Smith]

I have attached a picture of a boolit - 114gr, .311 diameter. I'd guess 31108, anyone else agree with me?

The only problem is that these were cast of a unified (handles and mold one) mold marked Winchester 32WCF. Oh, and it clearly says made by Winchester on it.

So the question in my mind is; which came first? Did Barlow steal Winchester's design, or Winchester steal Barlow's?

[Guesser]

I used one of those Winchester molds to run a couple hundred bullets. The mold I used was teamed with a '73 carbine from about 1889 or so, don't remember for sure. The mold was serialized to the gun. It had been cared for very well and dropped beautiful boolits. I don't know diddly about the origins, but it was neat to see the mold and gun together. I don't know how many were like that, come to think of it the gun had a checkered pistol grip stock; special order, I'd guess.

[Outpost75]

Attachment 95448

30WCF can nail this one down, probably, but my recollection is that the Winchester 32 WCF and Ideal #3118 were indeed the same bullet. As to which came first I do not know. Frank Marshall told me years ago that Ideal got started as a subcontractor for Winchester making loading tools for them. New Haven, CT where Winchester used to be is an easy drive to Middlefield, where Lyman Gunsight Co. was. Frank said that Barlow held the patents on both the mold and the loading tools, and while the Lyman family may have gotten started as a subcontractor for Winchester in New Haven, they soon started selling product under their own name. I have no documentation or proof of this, but the story as it was told to me seems plausible.

[Green Frog]

Outpost75, you've got some of the right info, but your timeline is a bit off. Ideal was the early maker of reloading stuff before the turn of the 20th Century, Lyman was making sights at the time. It was not until sometime around WW I or so that Lyman bought out Ideal and went into the reloading business. It appears that by the advent of smokeless powder in large percentages of the reloading activity, Winchester got out of the reloading (and reloading tool) business and left it open to Barlow's Ideal Co and a very few others.

As for your question Wayne, I have observed the same pattern of events you see in the 32-20 with the 32-40 and other contemporary bullets. My Winchester 32-40 x 165 is nearly identical to my early 319247 Ideal. There seem to have been some "standard" bullets for various Winchester and other cartridges, and Ideal probably filled the need in the reloading field by making moulds for those bullets for folks who just wanted to duplicate factory loadings. At least that seems logical to me.

Regards,
Froggie

[.22-10-45]

I have both the Winchester integeral handled mould you describe..as well as an early Ideal integeral handled 31108. Last fall I cast up a supply of each for use in a 1905 Colt Bisley revolver. Though they both resemble one another, they clearly are not the same..don't have them with me at moment for measurement..but the Winchester is a bit longer in the nose, as well as overall length.

[Firebird]

Didn't Lyman buy Ideal from Marlin? IIRC that Ideal was sold by the founder's family to Marlin Rifles just before WWI started, then Marlin in turn sold them after the war was over to Lyman.

[bhn22]

Yes. How does that affect Winchesters designs?