Brenneke Slug Mold?

[divinemarquis]

Is there such a thing as a mold for Brenneke style slugs? Is there one for Foster style? I have a 20ga that I use for almost everything shotgun related because one can get very creative with loads for shotgun. However, I would like to shoot Brenneke style slugs and have found that they are more expensive than the cheap Winchesters. The Winchesters run VERY well out of the smoothbore 870, but Im pretty sure the Brenneke has better terminal performance ( I know it punches hard targets better as well). Anybody know anything?

[CastingFool]

I have been using foster slugs out of an 870 for about 37 yrs. I have used both a smoothbore and a fully rifled barrel. I have also tried some of the newer saboted slugs, but have gone back to the fosters, due to cost. Never had an issue with slug performance if I took the time to ensure proper shot placement. The sabots seemed to do more internal damage, but doesn't justify their cost, when I get good results with fosters. I live in a shotgun only zone, so within my shooting range, you really don't need a whole lot of gun to put down a deer. Shot placement is key. Expensive slugs just drain your wallet faster. JMO

[Themoose]

I don't know of a Brenneke type mold... I know some have tried to modify other slugs and had issues with trying to attach wads to the slugs like the original Brenneke's. I did have a Lyman 20 Gauge sabot mold for awhile and could never get the accuracy out of it like the 12 gauge version.
If you want to load your own and use a solid slug that is not discarding, take a look at SlugsRUs they make a slug in 12 and 20 gauge that is non-discarding like the Brenneke(wad stays attached). They are the same slugs as used to be called Hastings.... they are now marketed under the name Rottweil.... you can just buy the slugs and wads to load your own... I think they run about 70 cents apeice...I got some 12 gauge to try, but have not fired any of them yet.

TheMoose

[jmort]

Lyman sells Foster style mold. Brenneke swages a harder lead alloy and will have better "terminal performance." I would try the Lyman "pellet" style mold.

[Themoose]

If you don't want to cast your slugs, but are looking for a more economical round in the "Brennecke" style.... look at the "Thug Slugs" sold by Ballistic Products International... slug/wad combos are offered in 1oz and 1 1/8 oz for about $16...

TheMoose

[turbo1889]

As to better terminal performance on harder or tougher targets, you can get some of that by modifying a typical foster slug so that the hollow base isn't as deep and the nose is molded thicker with more mass upfront to make the slug both heavier over-all for better sectional density and also increase the structural integrity of the slugs nose so it tends to deform less and punch through more on impact. There is a group buy going on right now in the active group buy section for a 20ga. slug mold that is a heavy hitter broad nosed heavy foster type slug with multiple pins available. The middle weight round shaped hollow base pin makes the thickest nose that will also be the best penetrating of the two hollow base versions which can be used in a smooth bore gun (solid slug with the flat pin is for special rifled slug barrels only).

[longbow]

I have gotten good to very good results using factory Foster slugs in my smoothbore but so far using home cast slugs and loads I have not had a lot of success.

I bought a Lyman Foster slug mould about 25 years ago and have not been able to get any sort of decent accuracy from it regardless of hull, powder, wads, overall recipe even using Lyman recipes right out of their manual.

My take is that the Lyman Foster slug is too undersize to produce decent accuracy. Originally they were sold as a mould and rifling swage die set. I do not know for sure but suspect that the slug was made to cast undersize then when rifling was swaged into the surface the slug would gain about 0.010" or more which would make them about bore size.

My mould casts at 0.705" and I have read post from people who say their's cast as small as 0.685". ).705" is way to big to put into a shotcup and way undersize for the bore. They "slug up" unevenly which I have proven to my satisfaction by recovering slugs from deep snow.

The short story is that commercially, you will not find a "Brenneke" mould.

I have made several and am still playing with them trying to get a decent attached wad system that is consistent.

Cap'n Morgan has made one that is a work of art and produces beautiful slugs but he is also still working on wads.

Your best bet for home casting and loading are the Lyman sabot slug or the Lee Drive Key slug which are both essentially "foster" hollow base slugs that fit into shotcups.

There are a few custom moulds around too but for smoothbore I think all you will find are hollow base styles.

Longbow

[turbo1889]

The Lyman Foster style molds are undersize for most guns and you have to have a machinest turn out their diameter a little larger to get decent accuracy out of them, they also have a very thin not very substantial nose (which can be fixed simply enough just by grinding down the hollow base pin tip to shorten it and the resulting hollow base and thus make for a thicker stronger heavier nose).

Yes, it is true that Brenneke slug heads are not only solid or nearly solid with a good thick solid nose but also are made of a somewhat harder alloy. If memory serves me correct the swagging alloy Brenneke uses is 4% antimony 96% lead which is most certainly considerably harder then the pure or near pure lead used in most factory foster type slug loads and this is part of why they do so well in penetration. But it isn't the whole story or even the majority of it. In testing I did with a thick heavy nose slug I only lost an inch of penetration (7" vs. 8" firing into the end-grain of DugFir firewood rounds) between using soft pure lead and hard WW-alloy (which is harder then Brennekes 4% swagging alloy) and the softer load was also not as powerful of a load so some of that 1" loss in penetration is just from not being as hot of a load. The structural integrity of a thicker stronger nose section (hollow base was only half the slugs length depth leaving the full front half of the slug with a solid core nose) at least in my testing has shown to be of considerably more importance for penetration then alloy hardness for hollow base, foster type slugs.

Here is a link to the results of one of those test that I posted on this forum:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...m-Brooks/page2

Not saying I'm the "know all" of slugs, but that is what my testing has shown so far, and no reason other people should have to do all the same testing work all over again if I've already done it.


The Lyman "pellet" style mold does have a good thick solid head although not quite a full half of the slugs length solid but much better then most foster slugs both factory loads and most molds as well. I love the 12ga. version and would highly recommend it but the 20ga. version in my opinion they messed up the proportions and its too long for its diameter and is not stable when fired from a smooth bore gun and will throw patterns of keyholes in my experience if fired from a smooth bore gun. 12ga. version does not have that problem and is a thumbs up from me.

[jmort]

I'm a little surprised that good old lead performed as well as it did. I know Dixie slugs are way north of 20 BHN and perform real good in the Linebaugh Bone Box.

[longbow]

Another idea I forgot above... I think it was Ajay who posted a picture of these BPI wads:

http://www.ballisticproducts.com/HB1...tinfo/072HB12/

I am planning to order some to see if they can be used as attached wads "Brenneke" style by filling a Lee or other hollow base slug with hot melt glue then aligning a couple of these wads in a form, pressed down onto the slug and fill the holes with glue or possibly use a plastic or metal dowel down into the glue. That may provide a consistent wad that will result in better accuracy.

Got lots of ideas and plans but need more money and time!

Longbow

[turbo1889]

Another idea I forgot above... I think it was Ajay who posted a picture of these BPI wads:

http://www.ballisticproducts.com/HB1...tinfo/072HB12/

. . .

That's a plastic base-wad for the hull itself. You could get a few of them to play with right away just by tearing down some junk hulls that use that kind of separate plastic base-wad in their construction. Dang, gives a guy some ideas when you start thinking about it since their are available in different diameters build into different gauge size hulls all with the same or very close to same internal hole diameter (209 shotgun primer size). Basically precision hard plastic "donut wads" as my woman calls them, she has a jig to center drill holes in the center of nitro cards for round ball slug loads using them above and below the ball to center the ball in the bore. Being hard plastic those would probably work even better. Might have to start salvaging them myself once I've gotten all the loads I can out of my hulls since I use a lot of straight walled hulls made with a construction that uses one of those in its base.

[turbo1889]

You could even make a mold with a solid head and then a cast rod spur out its bottom of the right diameter and length such that a stack of these would be a tight press fit down on that center rod that was one part with the cast lead head of the slug. By cutting the center rod as part of the mold with the head you could get it very centered right dead on cut as precisely as the mold cut itself. You would of course have to be sure to cast with an alloy that wasn't brittle probably with a lot of tin but it could make for some interesting possibilities. Or how about just lathe turning the whole head with its attached center core rod to press these onto. Copper solids anyone? Or how about a mold with a threaded rod center base pin that you threaded a nut and washer onto before each cast and then unscrewed the center pin from the finished casting providing an embedded nut and washer inside the cast lead slug head to accept a machine screw type bolt that attached these wads to the head base? The more I think the more possibilities I come up with in multiple gauge sizes using either purchased or salvaged plastic base-wads for hulls like these.

[338RemUltraMag]

Wow, you guys get creative, if yall need another shotgun mold cut dont hesitate to ask!

[turbo1889]

On a Brenneke type attached tail slug - we aren't ready for a group buy. We are still in the very beginning of the prototype stage. For a foster type slug there is enough collective knowledge base on this forum to come up with a good design. For a Brenneke type we aren't even close yet and we are still in the prototyping and testing zone.

[longbow]

When I get good skirts/wads cast, I get good accuracy. The problem is consistency without spending an excessive amount of time making the slug/wad/assembly.

If I machined each wad I am sure they would work well but I am not willing to spend that much time and effort per shot.

My cast on wads are showing promise but it is difficult to get them all exactly the same without some more sophisticated moulding equipment.

These plastic wads with convenient center hole may just be the ticket if they can be attached easily and consistently. My first thought was to use a thick skirted HB slug (turbo's basic slug design), place slug open cavity up in a form/jig, fill the cavity with hot melt glue, press two or three of these plastic wads in then fill the holes with glue for a center post.

It may be just as easy to simply cast a solid with a starter hole then run a screw through two or three of these and into the hole.

There are some possibilities here for sure.

I plan to try my latest ribbed HB slug with a couple of these added once I get them.

Longbow

[divinemarquis]

Wow. As usual, tons of information. Thanks for all the responses. Some of this Ill have to research because Im not sure what youre talking about. As usual, I could cover this forum for a day and still not have all the information out of one section. I like the idea of just modifying a Foster style to have a thicker head and cast it out of WW or harder alloy. That seems like it would be a decent compromise in place of a true Brenneke style. Especially since my 20 smoothbore runs Fosters touching holes at 50 yds if I do my job right.

[X-man]

Lots of info guys. Thanks for sharing!