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Thread: 32 S&W Long thread

  1. #1
    Boolit Buddy



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    32 S&W Long thread

    Awhile back there was an informative thread on the 32 S&W Long...it ran for several pages. I have tried to search for it and just cannot find it. It had discussion about SD carry and loads...I would appreciate any assistance on finding the thread...

    Thank you,

    rick

  2. #2
    Boolit Grand Master Outpost75's Avatar
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    Don't know about the old thread here, but I offer this with the kind permission of the author Ed Harris

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Tales From The Back Creek Diary - Fun with .32 Popguns

    The ".32 Popguns" make great small game foraging guns which are more effective on game animals larger than bunnies than a rimfire. The .32 ACP and .32 S&W Long should not be your first choice as defense guns, but loaded with flatnosed cast lead bullets they will be more effective than LRN and FMJ bullets in those calibers which served in police and military roles for many years. You need only ONE set of dies, one bullet mold, and two shell holders to reload ammunition for the:

    .32 ACP
    .32 Smith & Wesson
    .32 Smith & Wesson Long
    .32 H&R Magnum

    You "could probably" load .327 Federal also, but I have no personal experience with that cartridge.

    Get RCBS .32 ACP dies having a carbide sizer, expander die and seater. Get shell holders for the .32 ACP (or .30 carbine will work if you already have one) and .32 S&W Long (.223 Remington will also work if you already have one). Buy a Lee Factory Crimp Die for .32 ACP, which I consider essential. You don’t need one for the .32 S&W Long.

    If on a budget, get the RCBS 32-90CM mold which casts a 90-grain, flattened roundnose "Cowboy" slug.

    If you want more volume production, the Saeco #325 98-gr. SWC is the ideal small game bullet in the .32 S&W Long.
    Not all .32 ACP autopistols will feed it, but the Colt Pocket Hammerless, Walther PP, Beretta M1935 and CZ27 will. While bullets heavier than 77 grains weren't factory-loaded in the .32 ACP, heavier bullets up to 100 grains provide a good recoil impulse to cycle the older WW2-era guns, and are safe as long as you keep the loads mild, 1.7-1.8 grains of Bullseye and maintain overall cartridge length of 0.955" or longer.

    This is all you need besides your press.

    Cast your .32 bullets from range backstop scrap or wheelweights. Harder alloy is unnecessary. Load your bullets as-cast and unsized. Lube your bullets by tumbling in Lee Liquid Alox. You don't need to buy a lubricator-sizer.

    The .32 S&W Long and .32 H&R Magnum revolvers are most accurate with "fat" bullets of .314-.315" which are needed to fill the chamber throats. While normal diameter to size cast bullets for the .32 ACP is .311", using the Lee Factory Crimp die in .32 ACP enables you to load bullets as-cast and unsized, after lubricating with Lee Liquid Alox, because the Lee Factory Crimp Die will size the bullets by compression inside the case and profile all loaded rounds to ensures that all rounds will chamber and extract freely. This removes any bulges caused by a mismatch of bullet diameter and base profile to case wall thickness.

    Use Alliant Bullseye powder and anybody's small pistol primers. If budget conscious you only need the RCBS Little Dandy Measure with Rotor #00. This dispenses 1.7 grains of Bullseye, which in the .32 ACP gives about 750 fps from a full-=sized pistol with 10cm barrel, such as the Walther PP, approximating .32 S&W Long factory load revolver ballistics. This is the minimum load which cycles most WW2-era pistols. If you have a 90-grain or lighter bullet mold AND your particular Little Dandy Rotor #0 does not throw more than 2.0 grains of Bullseye you can use that in .32 ACP for a heavier load with bullets, not going below a minimum cartridge OAL 0.955." Check YOUR rotor by dumping TEN charges onto a scale and moving the decimal point. Don't exceed 2 grains with 80-grain+ cast bullets in the .32 ACP!

    Rotor #00 at 1.7 grains of Bullseye is the minimum low noise starting charge for the .32 S&W Long. Factory level .32 S&W Long velocities of 750 fps from a 4-inch revolver are approximated with Little Dandy Rotor #0 for 2.0-2.2 grains of Bullseye wither either the 90 grain RCBS Cowboy bullet or Saeco #325.

    The maximum charge in .32 S&W Long is metered by RCBS Little Dandy rotor #1 which is 2.5 grains of Bullseye for about 850 fps in .32 S&W Long brass, which is a great field load for general use and OK for a steady diet in postwar steel frame, swing-out cylinder revolver. This charge with a 71-grain FMJ at 0.98” overall cartridge length in .32 ACP approximates the hot Euro loads at 970 fps from a full length (10 cm) barrel, such as the Walther PP, but should not be used in the light alloy frames like the Kel-Tec or Beretta Tomcat, as it would be a "frame cracker!" Use it only in full-sized, steel frame pistols!

    Using .32 Long brass in revolvers chambered for .32 H&R Magnum ammunition, you may use the Little Dandy measure Rotor #3 for 3 grains of Bullseye with the 90 grain RCBS bullet for about 900 fps from a 4-inch gun. I consider this a "+P" load for occasional use only in strong, modern .32 S&W Long revolvers such as the S&W Models 30 and 31, but it is OK for a steady diet in the .32 H&R Mags.

    Factory level velocities around 1000 fps in .32 H&R Magnum brass are approximated using the RCBS Little Dandy Rotor #4 to meter 3.2 grs. of Bullseye in Starline .32 H&R Magnum brass with the Federal 200 primer, which approximates the ballistics of .32-20 Winchester black powder loads fired from a revolver. Some manuals suggest higher velocities in .32 H&R Mag. loads than this, but these defeat the purpose of a non-destructive small game in which you can “eat right up to the bullet hole.” .

    My cast bullet handloads in .32 ACP use either the 88-grain NEI #82, the 90-grain RCBS 32-90CM flatnose or a shortened 82-grain hollowpoint conversion of the Lyman #311008 as modified by http://www.hollowpointmold.com/.

    I cast handgun bullets from either wheelweights or indoor range backstop scrap of similar 11-12 BHN hardness. For subsonic loads harder alloy is not needed. Wheelweights slowly air cooled after casting are about BHN of 12, which is a good match for .32 ACP or .32 S&W Long or H&R Magnum ammunition.

    I tumble-lubricate bullets in Lee Liquid Alox, and load them as-cast and unsized with a charge of 1.7 (LD Rotor #00) grains of Bullseye. Do not seat bullets shorter than 0.95 inch overall cartridge length, because doing so causes bullet bases to protrude into the powder space, increasing load density and raising chamber pressure above maximum limits. Do not exceed 0.975 inch overall cartridge length, to prevent flat nosed cast bullets from dragging against the front of the magazine body.

    I recommend the Lee Factory Crimp Die for .32 ACP. Mine was custom made by them and costs about $30. This may be a standard item now. It removes any bulges caused by mis-match of the bullet diameter with the internal case wall taper, ensuring easy chambering. It sizes bullets, if needed by compression inside the case. People are confused by the advice given in old Lyman manuals which recommends sizing cast bullets to the groove diameter of the barrel. This results in undersized bullets being gas-cut, causing leading and poor accuracy. Load your bullets as-cast and unsized and let the Lee FCD make the rounds fit your gun. Wide variation in bore sizes coupled with different diameters of factory jacketed bullets between US and European ammo from .309 to .312 explains most accuracy problems people experience with the .32 ACP. Cast bullets of .311-.312 diameter perform best in most guns, but using the Lee factory Crimp Die enables as-cast bullets as large as .315 to be used.

    Do not shoot thousands of cast bullet loads with bullets heavier than 90 grains in the tiny Keltec and Beretta “mouse guns” having light alloy frames, because their increased recoil impulse is harder on the gun. The Beretta 3032 INOX pistol has a heavier slide than the original Tomcat which reduces its slide velocity to mitigate against the frame cracking problem which existed with early blued steel Tomcats when using hot European ammo. My replacement INOX has proven far more rugged than the blued steel Tomcat it replaced and has digested over 2000 of cast loads and 73-grain RWS hardball with no issues.

    In my testing Remington, Winchester, Federal, and Magtech 71-gr. FMJ ammo averaged only about 850 f.p.s. when fired from a Walther PP with 3.9 inch barrel. European CIP 73-gr. FMJ ammo such as RWS, Geco, Fiocchi or Sellier & Bellot does over 900 in the 2.4 inch Beretta Tomcat and over 950 in the CZ or Walther. Typical US 60-gr. JHPs typically run about 900 f.p.s. but their lighter bullets, don’t provide enough recoil impulse to reliably cycle the older European pistols.

    My cast bullet ACP loads discussed here approximate the velocity of .32 S&W Long ammo fired from a 4-inch revolver, about 750 f.p.s. Their recoil impulse approximates that of European 73-grain hardball and they are accurate, fun for recreational shooting or small game and they run the wartime guns like a pony trotting.
    Last edited by Outpost75; 01-31-2014 at 01:53 PM.

  3. #3
    Boolit Grand Master Outpost75's Avatar
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    More courtesy of Ed Harris

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    The late Harry J. Archer was a career clandestine services officer who served from the post-WWII cold war period through the Vietnam era, surviving missions in denied areas, later becoming a respected case officer retiring and living long enough to die peacefully at home in bed. Harry taught me that the purpose of a concealed handgun is to neutralize immediate threats from contact to twenty feet to facilitate escape. Harry carried whatever handgun was common among criminal elements in the country where the mission took him. This often meant a .32 ACP or 7.65mm Browning, because any M1911 variant or S&W revolver would make it plainly obvious that he wasn't a local.

    While no .32 ACP is your first choice for defense, the first rule of gun fighting is to HAVE A GUN. In the worst-case scenario any gun is better than no gun. A .32 autopistol is easy to control to produce rapid, accurate double or triple taps, compared to .380 or 9mm of similar size, which carries one less round.

    American .32 ACP FMJ ammo features a 71-grain bullet at advertised “catalog velocity” of 905 f.p.s. from the 3-1/2” industrial test barrel. In my chronograph tests US hardball typically makes 850 fps, and 60-65 grain HPs might break 900, but seldom expand from barrels shorter than 3-1/2.” European RWS, Geco, Fiocchi, Privi Partisan or Sellier & Bellot 73-gr. hardball produce 900 f.p.s. from pocket pistols such as the Beretta Tomcat, 950+ f.p.s. from the Walther PP and approach 1000 f.p.s. in the 1922 Browning. Typical .380 FMJs fired from a gun of barrel length less than 3 inches slightly exceed 800 f.p.s. European police organizations carried .32 ACPs until after the 1972 Munich Olympics terrorist attacks.

    When using a marginal caliber shot placement and penetration are most important. Lighter hollow point bullets often fail to penetrate larger bones or defeat intermediate cover, such as a defensively positioned arm, needed to reach vital organs. Comparing European CIP specification hardball in .32 ACP to typical .380 FMJs fired from short barrels any difference in performance not important. The improved performance claimed for .32 ACP hollowpoints is mostly advertising hype. In my testing of popular .32 pocket guns, no JHP loads available expand reliably in either water jugs or gelatin when fired from barrels shorter than 3 inches. US .32 ACP loads are anemic compared to their European counterparts and less reliable in function. Most WWII-era pistols steadfastly refuse to function with American ammo.

    The popular 60-gr. JHPs, are not reliable enough for carry and in my experience are almost a sure recipe for a “Jam-O-Matic.” Only the Fiocchi 60-gr. JHP at 1200 f.p.s. actually chronograhs over 1100 f.op.s. and has enough recoil impulse (when loaded as the first round "up the spout") to positively eject and reliably chamber a hardball load following in the magazine. But its exposed lead nose doesn’t permit rat-tat-tat-tat feeding any more than anemic 900 f.p.s. American 60-gr. JHPs. While it expands in a 10cm barrel, such as from the Walther PP, it does not at all from the 2.4 inch Beretta Tomcat.

    The best pistols for pocket carry should enable safe carry with the chamber loaded, and should be cable of immediate firing by stroking the trigger without having to manipulate an external safety. In the event of a misfire, the trigger mechanism should enable an immediate repeat strike upon the primer by repeating the trigger stroke. Pocket pistols which meet these basic criteria are the Walther PP and PPK. Mauser HSc and Beretta Tomcat.

    Let’s be clear that the .32 ACP is not my choice as a defense gun against either two-legged or 4-legged predators. However, there are those times when “any gun is better than no gun,” so it is better to take the .32 along than to go unarmed and take your chances. When the cylinder bulge of my usual .38 Special is too obvious, a .32 automatic drops nicely into a pocket holster. I like the fact that it makes a bigger hole than a 22 and presents a low profile.

    Stick to hardball. AND don't stop shooting after the first shot. We aren't looking for any "one-shot stops" here, but to quickly and accurately put double or triple taps on target. Multiple hits increase stopping power. Think of a .32 ACP as a 00 buckshot pattern which arrives sequentially rather than concurrently. Do you want to stand in front of it?
    Last edited by Outpost75; 01-31-2014 at 01:03 PM.

  4. #4
    Boolit Grand Master Outpost75's Avatar
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    I know you asked about the .32 S&W Long, but this on the .32 ACP is also a great read.

    This article previously appeared in the Cast Bullet Association Fouling Shot and is posted here by the kind permission of Ed Harris.

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Tales from the Back Creek Diary

    “Cast Bullets Turn the .32 ACP into A Bunny Buster”

    OK children, todays cast bullet trivia question is … Who was J.V.K. Wagar?

    No, he was not a writer of children’s fiction depicting Norse mythology. If you Google Mr. Wagar you’ll find that he was a Colorado forester who was active in the Wildlife Society of Colorado A&M University and various professional organizations into the mid 1950s. He also wrote an article which appeared in the August, 1931 issue of The American Rifleman on pgs. 14-15, entitled “Almost, the Best Small Pistol.” If you own a .32 automatic you really must read it. If you don’t own a .32 ACP, I urge you to read the article anyway. If you do, you may just find yourself buying a .32 pocket pistol years later, in fondly recalling the article. That’s exactly why I did.

    Let’s be clear that the .32 ACP is not my choice as a defense gun against either two-legged or 4-legged predators. However, there are times when “any gun is better than no gun.” Because I can carry legally in my home state of Virginia, and West Virginia, where I have a vacation home recognizes my permit, I do so most of the time.

    It is also true that many social and recreational occasions require that I do so discreetly, lest I “scare the natives.” When or where the cylinder bulge of my usual D-frame Colt .38 Special is too obvious, a .32 automatic drops nicely into a pocket holster. I also like the fact that it makes a bigger hole than a 22 and still presents a low profile.

    A .32 automatic is small, light, flat and compact. It is convenient, accessible and practical to carry during woods-loafing hikes or overnights, which may present an opportunity to shoot small game for camp meat or plink a magazine or two at cans by firelight. You could just as easily do this with a .380 ACP or a 9x18 Makarov, but the .32 ACP’s appeal for me is that used guns for it these days are plentiful and cheap, and it uses the same components I have already for the .32 S&W Long and .32 H&R Magnum, my preferred trail revolvers.

    While the .32 ACP cartridge benefits from new variants in factory ammunition, US loads are more anemic than their European counterparts. Typical American FMJs feature a 71-grain bullet at an advertised “catalog velocity” of 905 f.p.s. But in my chronograph tests they actually produce velocities more like 850 f.p.s. in the average pocket pistol. European RWS, Geco, Fiocchi or Sellier & Belliot ammo really do clock 900 f.p.s. and do so with a heavier 73-grain bullet, which functions WWII-era pistols positively!

    Most WWII-era FN, Beretta, CZ, and Mauser pistols steadfastly refuse to function with modern American ammo. Popular 60-gr. JHPs, are a sure recipe for a “Jam-O-Matic,” regardless of their flavor. Only the Italian Fiocchi 60-gr. JHP at 1200 f.p.s. has enough pizzazz, from the first round loaded up the spout, to positively eject and reliably chamber a hardball or cast bullet load following in the magazine. But its exposed lead nose deforms on striking the feed ramp and doesn’t permit rat-tat-tat-tat feeding any more than the anemic 900 f.p.s. American JHPs.

    Expansion from typical .32 autos is a sometime thing. Of U.S. brands I water-jug tested, only the Speer Gold Dot opened up every time, but it just wouldn’t feed. The Fiocchi 60-gr. JHP is a hotter load, chronographing close to 1200 fps, and expanding reliably to .50 cal. or over in water jugs, but it doesn't rat-tat-tat either, so I limit its use to the first round chambered.

    In over 30 years experience, I have found that the best small game load for a .32 ACP is assembled with a flat-nosed cast bullet, heavier than issue FMJ, to produce a heavier recoil impulse. These must be loaded to lower velocity to stay within normal pressures, and the resulting load approximates the ballistics of the .32 S&W Long or .32 Colt New Police when fired from a 4-inch revolver. We are talking about an 85 to 98 grain flat-nosed cowboy bullet such as the 94-gr. Meister, or semi-wadcutter such as the Saeco #325 or RCBS 32-98SWC(in pistols which feed them) launched at 750-800 f.p.s. How I arrived at this conclusion takes us to directly to Wagar’s article…

    When I was fresh out of the Navy and an eager new NRA Staffer our Executive Editor Ken Warner asked me to assemble some cast bullet loads for an M1903 Colt Pocket Model .32 ACP. The first thought in my head was, “why the ^&*^%#!@ would anybody want to do THAT? The gun belonged to the late Harry Archer, who then worked for our government and was being sent out of the country clandestinely on our behalf. Harry needed some ammunition which reliably functioned his M-series Colt, and which would be more effective than hardball, the only ammo then available.

    When I asked why Harry was packing a .32 and not something more effective, I was informed politely that it was really none of my business, but that “when in Rome, you do as the Roman’s do.” Ken explained to me that if Harry took a .45 or a .357 it would be obvious that he was “not a local.” Since “the bad guys” where he was going normally used .32 automatics, while military and police carried various 9mms, the Colt would be discreet and also “blend in.” While an FN or Beretta would have been better, we didn’t have one. Walthers, according to Harry, were notorious “hand biters,” and not an option, so ending the conversation.

    Loading manuals were of little help, so I researched the NRA archives and stumbled upon Wagar’s article. It was an entertaining treasure trove of practical information on the Colt pocket model and loading cast bullets for the .32 ACP. Wagar said that, “it has proved so useful for much of the outdoor shooting in our part of the country that … I frequently leave my heavier pistols and revolvers at home…

    “This is not a deep wilderness side arm…, but as a light pistol to accompany the big rifle it has many advantages… one is never hampered by its weight and bulk and it need not be left behind because the way is hard and steep or the trail long…“The .32 Colt Automatic… is the biggest pistol that fits comfortably into ones pockets… and its owner isn’t often asked by some romance filled tourist if you are a real live cowboy, so the hills are full of these pistols.”

    “Practical accuracy is not of the spectacular kind… I can obtain quite good accuracy holding the pistol in both hands and resting them upon my knees I can hit a 50-cent piece practically with every shot at 20 yards. … is almost ideal for strictly small game shooting, we have shot many cottontails, grouse, squirrels… over 200 pieces of game in all--- and have found it unexcelled. It is just enough larger than a .22 Long Rifle to make it a more certain killer, yet destroys little more flesh and makes little more noise in the woods…cast bullets will give more killing power than the jacketed factory bullets. They do not expand upon flesh, but roughen when they strike bone and tear flesh rather than parting it.”

    “If one has access to an Ideal No. 4 tool and mould for the .32 S&W he is well equipped… The .32 S&W bullet weighs 88 grains and its diameter of .313 inch is well adapted... I have loaded many hundreds of .32 A.C. cartridges with .32 S&W tools…If one shoots a high-powered .30 caliber rifle Marbles adapters using the .32 A.C. cartridge can be used for small game shooting or one can use the .32 A.C. cartridge in the Winchester adapters made for firing .32 S&W cartridges in the .30-30, .30-40 and .30-‘06 rifles.

    In closing, Wagar summarized: "This is not a target arm, nor is it powerful enough for defense purposes against great beasts or armed men of great virility; but considering its short length, light weight, light report and recoil, and cheapness of ammunition, one will have difficulty in finding a more accurate, more reliable and more powerful pistol just to take along.”

    The .32 ACP pocket guns don't have any great reputation for accuracy. The Speer No. 13 handbook states that 3-4" at 25 yards is about the best you can hope for. This is in keeping with WWII German military and postwar German police acceptance accuracy standards which allowed 5 mils or 75mm of dispersion (about 3") at 15 meters (approximately 49 ft.). Any pocket pistol which groups better than 4 mils, or 60mm (2.36") at 15 meters is said by Europeans to be quite good.

    My experience with a dozen or so pocket guns over the years confirms that the most accurate pocket pistols are the Walther PP (not the PPK), FN M1922, Mauser HSc, Beretta M70, Colt Pocket and CZ27. The best pocket guns reliably shoot into about 2” at 50 feet. Any pocket pistol which does should be considered a “keeper.”

    During my 1972 introduction to the Colt Pocket Hammerless, I became impressed with its instinctive pointing, reliable function and practical accuracy “for what it was.” Reading Col. Rex Applegate's close combat files and practicing WWII techniques I understood why people who have these don't get rid of them. During that era I tested just about every .32 ACP pistol made, to isolate which guns were the most reliable, accurate, and natural pointers. We fired lab specimens borrowed from the NRA museum, FBI and BATF labs as well as some unusual guns borrowed from military collections.

    No hollow-point factory loads existed then, so we shot “hot” European hardball and handloads assembled with cast bullets and Winchester factory lead, 100-grain flat-nosed .32-20 slugs. These, loaded to 0.97" OAL with 2.4 grs. of Unique became Harry’s choice for handloaded carry ammo in his overseas go-bag.

    Use of M-series Colt Pocket Hammerless pistols during WWII by our OSS and Britain’s SOE is well documented. Colt Pocket Models were issued to U.S. general officers well into the 1970s. A Type III Colt was Harry’s choice for discreet carry when a larger, more adequate firearm was not "mission feasible."

    The various Berettas M1934/35, M70, the VZ/CZ27, Mauser M1910 and HSc, the Browning M1910 and M1922 also "made the cut" in terms of reliability, but in Harry’s eyes were only substitutes, being “acceptable, but not first choice,” compared to the Colt. I have since collected all of the .32 autos on what the insiders down “at the farm” used to call “Harry's Good List.” I've shot them all fairly extensively and the results are interesting.

    I fired eight-shot groups, because that’s what their magazines hold. While these are short-range guns I shot them at 25 yards to allow comparison with typical service guns, although that represents extreme range for a pocket pistol. For field utility in shooting small game for camp meat, ten to fifteen yards is the practical limit for any reasonable expectation of "small game accuracy," which I see as a two-inch group.

    In recent testing intended to refresh my memory, typical .32 autos averaged 4 inches in series of five consecutive 8-shot groups, using RWS and Fioccho Ball ammo, Fiocchi hollowpoints and my cast loads with 98 grain. lead bullets and 1.7-1.8 grs. of Bullseye, counting fliers and all, discounting nothing. Six-shot groups fired from typical snubby revolvers are no different.

    This level of accuracy is practical and realistic. Dispatching trapped animals and sitting short range rabbits, sure! But no head-shots at squirrels in tall trees. These little guns are for close woods range.

    Flat-nosed cast bullets are more effective than LRN or FMJ hardball. They are cheaper than jacketed hollow-points, feed more reliably and tend to be more accurate! My best gun and load combinations group around 3 inches at 25 yards. My favorite cast bullet handloads use the Saeco #325 semi-wadcutter cast of wheelweights, lubricated with Lee Liquid Alox, and loaded as-cast and unsized with 1.7 to 1.8 grs. of Bullseye, seated to the normal revolver crimp groove and the rounds taper crimped using a custom Lee Factory Crimp Die. This has a carbide full length sizer which profiles the loaded round and sizes the bullet by compression inside the case, removing any bumps or bulges caused by any mismatch of the bullet diameter to case wall internal taper. A custom Lee FCD costs $30. I highly recommend it for anyone who is serious about reloading for the .32 ACP.

    I fooled around some with the MCA chamber inserts enabling use of .32 ACP ammo as sub-caliber small game rounds in my .30-30. At 25 yards it was no more accurate than the pistol, and it was tedious to extract, reload the insert adapter and manually load it into the chamber each time. A reduced load with a 115-gr. lead .32-20 bullet and 5 grs. of Bullseye pistol powder loaded into a .30-30 case was more accurate and made more sense if I was carrying the .30-30 anyway.

    But I got the idea to build a light, “walking around rifle” which would be both handy and quiet. Because I usuallly carry either a .32 S&W Long revolver or .32 ACP pocket pistol around our country place, I reallky wanted to be able to use either type of bunny gun ammo as small game rifle rounds. My reasoning was that for very light, quiet “.30 cal. CB cap” loads, approximating a .32 rimfire, that the tiny .32 ACP case could have advantages, whereas the larger .32 S&W Long case would have more powder capacity if I wanted to load something having a bit more energy and range, approximating a .32-20.

    I had a seldom used H&R .410 single-shot on the tiny pre-war action which weighed about 4 pounds. I contacted John Taylor at Taylor Machine and soon had a pair of barrels chambered for .32 ACP and .32 S&W Long equipped with XS ghost ring peep sights to fit my little H&R shotgun. And best of all I still had the .410 barrel too! I opted for an 18” barrel for the .32 ACP to have the “maximum handy” configuration, and a 26” one for the .32 S&W Long to ensure “maximum quiiiieett so as not to scare the bunny wabbits!”

    I fired side-by-side tests indoors comparing the .32 S&W Long and .32 ACP barrels with iron sights at 25 yards, which I consider realistic “bunny wabbit” distance. Getting inch groups at 25 yards with iron sights proved challenging for 58-year-old eyes, but I managed to do so with enough different loads to prove the concept practical.

    Factory Winchester .32 S&W Long 98-grain LRN, and .32 ACP Fiocchi and RWS 73-gr. hardball averaged just under inch groups at 25 yards. The 98-gr. LRN factory loads in the .32 S&W Long with 26 inch barrel gave 884 f.p.s. and were no louder than standard velocity .22 LR fired from a sporting length rifle.

    In .32 ACP Fiocchi 73-grain hardball clocked 943 f.p.s., and RWS hardball was 1214 f.p.s. from the 18 inch barrel. Fiocchi 60-grain JHPs which gave 1199 f.p.s. from my 3.5 inch Beretta pistol screamed out 1463 f.p.s. in the 18” H&R walking rifle. Its sharper report was more like firing a .22 WMR.

    My original goal was not high velocity, but quiet small game loads approximating the ballistics of a .32 Long rim fire (from .32 ACP brass) or standard velocity lead .32-20 loads (from .32 S&W Long brass). These objectives were met handily. If you don't cast your own bullets and want to buy some, the Meister 94-gr. LFN bullet of .312 diameter has a profile almost identical to the original flat-nosed factory bullet used in the .32 Colt New Police. Its ogive length enables a .975” overall cartridge length when taper-crimped into the .32 ACP and it doesn’t bulge cases.

    Velocities of the .32 ACP cast bullet loads fired from my Beretta pistol approximate the velocities expected firing a .32 S&W Long 4” revolver using the same bullet with 2.5 grains of Bullseye. The samo ammo when fired from the 18” rifle for .32 ACP, loaded with the minimum 1.7 grain charge of Bullseye which still reliably functions my WWII-era European autopistols approaches the 900 f.p.s. This equals the velocity expected of standard velocity .32-20 Winchester factory lead bullet loads fired from a four-inch barreled revolver with typical 0.008" cylinder gap. These subsonic rifle loads gave a measured peak noise level of 90dB measured at 1 meter from the muzzle of the 18-inch barrel, this compares to firing high velocity .22 LR from a typical sporting rifle.

    Attempting to drive a non-expanding cast bullet intended for small game supersonic in a small game rifle is a waste of powder. I don’t view this as a 100-yard rig. This is a “walking around gun,” so an iron-sight, 50 yard zero coupled with reliable 4 moa grouping and enough greater striking energy than a .22 LR to make reliable 1-shot kills on raccoon, groundhog, wild turkey (where legal) or the occasional marauding feral dog or coyote, is more than practical.

    The .32 S&W Long barrel is 26” long and noticeably quieter, about a 5dB reduction at comparable subsonic velocities compared to the .32 ACP at 18.” While the longer 26" barrel of the .32 Long rifle balances better and is steadier for offhand shooting, its shorter .32 ACP counterpart carries like a dream for long walks along fence rows and scattered farm fields in search of furry or feathered edibles. The 18 inch .32 ACP barrel stows easily in a backpack when taken down, and carries effortlessly through mountainous, brushy woodlands of the type I often hunt. It is also faster handling in snap-shots and seems just as accurate at practical small game ranges as its longer .32 S&W Long cousin, despite its shorter sight radius.

    I bought a dozen cakes of Ivory soap at Walmart and shot at these to compare the effect of bullet shape on impact. Lead round nose .32 S&W Long and .32 ACP hardball made clean, round 3/8 inch exits little different than those of .22 LR solids. Meister 94-grain LFNs fired from both calibers made larger, dime-sized exits with good small game potential. Fiocchi’s 60-gr. JHP made quarter-sized exits, too destructive for camp meat. Cast bullets are still best for small game and plinking. My little "Bunny Gun" shoots better than I can hold with iron sights, is no louder than a .22 rimfire and is more effective on edible game and varmints. Who could ask for anything more?
    Last edited by Outpost75; 01-31-2014 at 01:55 PM.

  5. #5
    Boolit Grand Master Outpost75's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jumbeaux View Post
    Awhile back there was an informative thread on the 32 S&W Long...it ran for several pages. I have tried to search for it and just cannot find it. It had discussion about SD carry and loads...I would appreciate any assistance on finding the thread..
    This THIS it?

    --------------------------------------

    Tales from the Back Creek Diary

    “The sweetest shooting revolver…I have ever handled…”
    Julian S. Hatcher, Textbook of Pistols and Revolvers, (1935)

    The black powder version of .32 Smith & Wesson Long was introduced in 1896 and was followed by a smokeless version in 1903 for the Model I, Hand Ejector revolver, adopted by the New York City Police Department. The Regulation Police, as it was also known, was the first service revolver standardized by the NYPD. Until the 1930s when law enforcement officers were faced with heavily armed criminals driving metal automobiles, the .32 S&W Long was the smallest revolver then deemed adequate for police use.

    Old references give differing accounts as to its ballistics, due to use of various barrel lengths, and listed catalog velocities being obtained from solid test barrels, rather than revolvers, or vented test barrels, as are used today. Hatcher’s Textbook of Pistols and Revolvers (1935) stated the original charge as 13 grains of black powder for 790 f.p.s. from a 4-1/4 inch barrel. Hatcher said that the .32 Hand Ejector was “the sweetest shooting revolver at fifty yards I have ever handled,” and that it was the “ideal home defense gun for women.” Which … “should be used when possible with the flat-point .32 Colt New Police, which nearly doubles its stopping power.”

    A Western Cartridge Company catalog table in Sixguns by Keith (1955) shows the smokeless powder 98-grain. Lubaloy roundnose at 820 from a 4” barrel, the 100 grain flatnosed .32 Colt New Police at 795 f.p.s.and a wadcutter at 770 f.p.s. from a 6” barrel. Keith said, “of the .32s only the Smith & Wesson Long and the .32-20 are worthy of mention.” Of the S&W Long Keith said, “the #313445 with 4 grains of Unique is a wonderful small game cartridge… it works nicely with solid bullets on small game, but lacks killing power on anything larger.”

    The Ideal Handbook No. 34 (1943) recommended either the standard roundnosed bullet #313226 or the flat-nosed 100-grain Colt Special bullet #31357 with 2.5 grains of Bullseye for 707 f.p.s. from the 3” pocket gun. The 1964 Gun Digest describes the .32 Long as the “most popular of .32s for revolvers… a good small game cartridge… as accurate as the .38 Special, but less versatile.”

    Today’s factory ammunition for the .32 S&W Long is listed as 705 f.p.s. with a 98-gr. lead bullet, round-nosed. SAAMI pressures today are kept under 12,000 cup in deference to the many old Colt Pocket Positive and S&W Eye-frame revolvers in which cylinders weren’t heat-treated, and which are still around. Stronger post-war revolvers such as the Smith & Wesson Models 30 and 31, and steel Colt D frames (the same size as used for the .38 Special) can safely handle pressures approximating the .38 Special +P enabling velocities of around 900 f.p.s. with 85 grain jacketed or 100 grain lead bullets.

    I reload for several .32 S&W Long revolvers, enjoy shooting them, and use them for the same purposes that “normal people” would use a .22 rim fire for. If you buy your powder and primers in quantity at discount and enjoy bullet casting and reloading for their own sake, shooting these center-fire popguns costs no more than a .22. That can of Bullseye powder which now costs $20, will load 2800 rounds at 2.5 grains per pop.

    The Ruger Single Six .32 H&R Magnum is still my favorite trail gun, but since I wrote a Gun Digest article about it some years ago, I have obtained several small frame S&W .32 revolvers, which seem ideal for the recreational “kit gun” role. I shoot mostly .32 S&W Longs in my Ruger Single Six to simplify ammunition supply. In about 30 years of playing with the .32s I feel it is a much more effective small game load than the .22 LR, especially since I now have a handy single shot rifle too.

    In fixed sight guns zero is affected more by bullet weight than velocity. Lighter bullets shoot low, and heavier bullets shoot high. Most fixed sight .32 Long revolvers shoot close to point of aim at practical small game ranges from 50 feet to about 25 yards with 85 to 100 grain bullets. The heavier 115-120 grain .32-20 slugs shoot about 3” high at 25 yards, enable a 6 o’clock hold at fifty yards and shoot “on” to point of aim at 100 yards.

    In the pre-1957 S&W revolvers which don’t have the model number stamped in the yoke cut, don’t attempt to load over 850 f.p.s. with a 98-grain lead bullet. This provides a useful, but modest improvement in performance over the factory loads, and has ample penetration for small game. I prefer the Saeco #325 98-gr. SWC for hunting because it has the largest meplat to best let the air out of bunny wabbits. But for pure recreation the Meister 94-grain .312" LFNs are so cheap, that it hardly pays to cast just for practice.

    The Meister is a dead ringer in shape for the factory flat-nosed bullets once loaded in the .32 Colt New Police. It has a long ogival nose compared to the Saeco #325’s short SWC and leaves more airspace in the case, when crimped in the crimp groove. Therefore, it takes about ½ grain more Bullseye powder with the Meister to reach the same velocity obtained with the Saeco #325 seated deeper in its crimp groove. For older S&W I frames good loads are 2 grains of Bullseye with the Saeco #325 and 2.4 grains with the Meister.

    For longer range plinking I use the heavier 120-gr. Saeco #322 LFN .32-20 bullet. I do not use this bullet in the older S&W Eye frames. In the Ruger Single Six and modern post-war .32s, I load 2 grains of Bullseye and seat the bullet out, crimping it in the lubricating groove. It’s 1.35” cartridge length protrudes out the front of older Eye frame cylinders, preventing you from doing something stupid. It gives about 720 f.p.s. from a 4-inch revolver and is nearly silent at 850 f.p.s. from my 26” H&R custom rook rifle. This overall cartridge length, the same as .32 H&R Magnum ammunition, works fine in S&W J and K frames, as well as the Ruger Single Six. It also feeds from the Marlin 1894 Cowboy, which steadfastly refuses to feed factory .32 Longs.

    Somewhat heavier field loads are useable in the stronger S&W Models 30 or 31, postwar Colt D-frames. A charge of 2.5 grains of Bullseye with the Saeco #325 or 3 grains with either the Meister 94-grain LFN, or Hornady 85-gr. XTP provide about 900 f.p.s. and shoot flatter to 50 yards or more. This is my standard working load in my Ruger Single Six, being just below .32 H&R Magnum levels.

    Cylinder gaps vary in old revolvers and have a dramatic effect upon velocities obtained. The data in the accompanying table compare results from a pre-war 4-1/2 inch barrel S&W I-frame .32 Hand Ejector with 0.010” cylinder gap barrel, compared to a 1970s production four-inch barrel J-frame Model 31 with 0.006” cylinder gap and a Ruger Single-Six 4-5/8” .32 H&R Magnum.

  6. #6
    Boolit Grand Master Outpost75's Avatar
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    Factory loads for the .32 S&W Longs fire a 98-gr. lead round-nosed or full wadcutter bullet at about 700 fps. Pressure is about 12,000 psi in deference to old Colt Pocket Positive and S&W Eye-frames which still abound. Strong post-war revolvers such as the Smith & Wesson Models and 31 and steel Colt D frames (on the .38 Special frame) can safely handle pressures up to about 20,000 psi, similar to .38 Special +P or the .32 H&R Magnum, yielding about 900 f.p.s. with 85 grain jacketed or 100 grain lead bullets handloaded in .32 S&W Long brass. So loaded, the .32 Long approximates a .32-20 Winchester, with cheaper, more common brass, easier to load and more accurate.

    I own several .32 S&W Long revolvers and use them outdoors for the same purposes that “normal people” use a .22 LR or WMR for. They are more effective on small game than a rimfire, and ruin less meat, so you can “eat right up to the bullet hole.” They are frugal of powder and lead, so reloading for and shooting these popguns costs no more than a .22. Alliant Bullseye powder yield 2800 rounds per pounds at 2.5 grains per pop.

    In fixed sight revolvers zero is affected more by bullet weight than velocity. Light bullets shoot low, and heavier bullets shoot high. Most .32 revolvers shoot close to point of aim at 50 feet to 25 yards with 85 to 100 grain bullets. Heavier 115-120 grain .32-20 slugs shoot about 3” high at 25 yards, enable a 6 o’clock hold on rabbits at fifty yards and shoot hit “on” exactly to point of aim at 100 yards, useful standoff distance for feral dogs.

    The Saeco #325 SWC has the largest meplat, producing maximum crush with deep penetration, about 30 inches in water filled milk jugs. My four-cavity mold modified by www.hollowpointmold.com drops two 98-grain solids and two 93-grain hollowpoints at a time. The RCBS 32-90CM is a good choice for a less expensive production mold. My standard small game load is 2.5 grains of Bullseye for 850 fps from a 4” revolver. With the 93-grain hollowpoint I increase the charge to 3 grains, for 900 fps which expands to .50”.+ in water jugs, performing like an FBI all-lead .38 Special +P hollowpoint which shrunk in the washing machine. For older pre-war S&Ws, Colts and Iver-Johnsons 2 grains of Bullseye safely approximates factory velocity and pressure, giving 720 f.p.s. from a 4-inch revolver and 850 f.p.s. silently from my 26” rook rifle.

    I have chamber adapters for my .30-30, .303 British and 7.62x4R rifles which enable me to use .32 S&W Long or H&R Mag. ammo for quiet, short range small game hunting. When fired in a rifle barrel with adapter the .32s are very quiet. You can expect inch groups at 50 feet with iron open sights using your normal 200 yard hunting zero. These adapters are worthwhile to pack in your kit if you carry a handgun of that caliber, to shoot small game for camp meat and conserve your big game rounds.

    Accurate, mild report, quiet, cheap to shoot and effective. You couldn‘t ask for a better “poacher’s pet” or trapper’s gun. It does everything the .32-20 does, with less trouble.

  7. #7
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    Thank you very much sir...enough information here to keep me entertained for a good while...I appreciate the knowledge of our forum brothers/sisters...

    rick

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    Boolit Master
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    I thank you also , this thread makes my day! Lots of goodies in one place ,,, Sticky material maybe??

  9. #9
    Boolit Master

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    Great stuff. I love the 32's probalby why I have so many.

  10. #10
    Boolit Grand Master
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    Our own Beagle did a thread somewhere on the various 32s... you might do a search with his name and 32.

    Froggie
    Last edited by Green Frog; 02-10-2014 at 09:46 AM.
    "It aint easy being green!"

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    Boolit Master Jupiter7's Avatar
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    Outpost,

    Good read, thanks.

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    Boolit Master trapper9260's Avatar
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    You can also use the same dies to reload 327 I do all the time and with haven a 327 you can shoot all the others that is stated about.Just make sure you clean the cylinder before you shoot a different cart. because of it will make it easy on the other brass of different .It is just like shoot a 38spl in a 357.The only different on 327 and 32H&R that they can use a bigger bollit then your smaller cart. When 22lr run short for me I will just use the 32S&W in its place.Hope this will help.This is what works for me .
    Life Member of NRA,NTA,DAV ,ITA. Also member of FTA,CBA

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  14. #14
    Boolit Grand Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Green Frog View Post
    Our own Beagle did a thread somewhere on the various 32s... you might do a search with his name and 32.

    Froggie
    I went back and found this, and since it won't show up in a search of this site, I'm including the URL;
    http://hgmould.gunloads.com/casting/32hrcast.htm

    Thanks for a great read, beagle!

    Froggie
    "It aint easy being green!"

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    Boolit Grand Master Outpost75's Avatar
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    Skrenos and Green Frog, thanks very much for the additional links.

    I'm coming late to the party here on this site and wasn't aware of all the earlier threads.

    It's great to have them all now assembled here for easy reference!

    Now needs to be Sticky!

  16. #16
    Boolit Grand Master



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    Froggie;
    When I saw ".32" in the thread title, I KNEW you would show up here! I hope that it warms up a bit soon, so I can get my .32's out to the range and SHOOT! It is zero as I write this and supposed to dip to -3 by sunrise. I am ready for SPRING!!

    My favorite .32 is my 16-4 Smith, but I have a great deal of affection for my 631 (.32 H&G Magnum) with 4" barrel. It is far better (read that, "more useful") as a field pistol than my .22 Kit Gun. It kills much better and with wadcutters or my Group Buy 100 gr Keith does a fine job on edible small game.

    I hope to be in "match shape" by the time you get up here so I can give you a "run for the money". Of course, I'll be using my factory Smiths against your custom Smith but I plan to give you a rough time, nonetheless.

    Dale53

  17. #17
    Boolit Master

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    Love shooting my CZ50 with reloads.


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    De Oppresso Liber

    Irag: 91,03,04,05,06,08,09',15', 16',22-23'
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  18. #18
    Boolit Buddy



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    Quote Originally Posted by Skrenos View Post
    Sir thank you very much...this is exactly what I was looking for...wish this could become a Sticky...again Thank you sir...

    rick

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by jumbeaux View Post
    Awhile back there was an informative thread on the 32 S&W Long...it ran for several pages. I have tried to search for it and just cannot find it. It had discussion about SD carry and loads...I would appreciate any assistance on finding the thread...

    Thank you,

    rick
    The name of that thread was"The .32 long as a Manstopper" and was under the heading of wheelguns, Handcannons etc.
    Old thread, but hope it helps.
    Sorry, i didn't see you already had the info.
    Last edited by Alferd Packer; 06-21-2019 at 01:33 AM.

  20. #20
    Boolit Grand Master
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    Another mid-caliber handgun enthusiast showing up for the party. MANY THANKS for the re-posts of these GREAT threads and content.
    I don't paint bullets. I like Black Rifle Coffee. Sacred cows are always fair game. California is to the United States what Syria is to Russia and North Korea is to China/South Korea/Japan--a Hermit Kingdom detached from the real world and led by delusional maniacs, an economic and social basket case sustained by "foreign" aid so as to not lose military bases.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check