.25 ACP rifle, what powder?

[Garyshome]

.25 ACP rifle........WHY?

[Crank]

Just so that everyone will question my sanity!

On a more serious note, WHY NOT! original ammo is virtually non-existent and not renowned as a ballistic wonder, the rifle is ruggedly constructed and graceful and begs to be used. With the current ammo situation I have created an equal to a rimfire that is reloadable. I cherish the horrified looks that people have when they see how I have altered a "collectible" (collectible my ***). Besides, I enjoy the engineering challenge to make something like this work.

Mark

[Chev. William]

.25 ACP rifle........WHY?

Because it is "Cool" Idea. And I have a Marlin Model 56 and a Lothar Walther 23.4 inch long Barrel Blank for .25ACP/6.35mm browning just waiting for the funds to accrue to have my gunsmith fit the barrel and Bolt assembly I bought through Numerich Arms about a year and a half ago.
I think this 'Levermatic' with a ten shot detachable magazine will will be Very Interesting to shoot.

I also have a Stevens Favorite in ".25 Stevens" being fitted with a Center Fire Converted Breech Block that I will also be shooting .25ACP through, along with some longer body of the same sizes.

The end results will be some "Cheap to Shoot" fun firearms.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[taco650]

Because it is "Cool" Idea. And I have a Marlin Model 56 and a Lothar Walther 23.4 inch long Barrel Blank for .25ACP/6.35mm browning just waiting for the funds to accrue to have my gunsmith fit the barrel and Bolt assembly I bought through Numerich Arms about a year and a half ago.
I think this 'Levermatic' with a ten shot detachable magazine will will be Very Interesting to shoot.

I also have a Stevens Favorite in ".25 Stevens" being fitted with a Center Fire Converted Breech Block that I will also be shooting .25ACP through, along with some longer body of the same sizes.

The end results will be some "Cheap to Shoot" fun firearms.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

That cost a bunch to get built. At least Crank can do his own 'smithing but he's still spending $$ on electricity. Sorry Chev but my desire to have something unique is severely limited by my cash flow orientation. At this point in my life, I'm content to watch you and Crank get the "different" stuff made.

[Chev. William]

Taco650,
I know the Feeling. I am 71, going on 72, and in a Movie Industry Union. I have had no Paid Work since December 2013, and the outlook for further work is bleak. My Union has Union Dispatch but no Production Calls have come in requesting our services. I am surviving on a combination of Social Security Retirement, Military Retired Pay, Veterans Administration Disability Pay for Service Connected problems, and a pair of small retirement fund payments from past employments that were long enough to Vest a retirement benefit. As Taxes, Fuel, and Food costs greatly outstrip the "Cost of Living" increases in my SS, VA and DFAS pay, I am short on 'Discretionary Funds' also, which is why the projects I have are proceeding so slowly currently.
Just to add to my potential misery the California State legislature is trying to make a law to require ALL Existing Firearms be Serialized and Registered with the State. If this is not a Big Pain to you, just think of the LOSS of Value to Collectors with arms produced before Serial numbers were used generally. Remember Collector Value is Highly Dependent on Original Condition. Serialization is an alteration of Original Condition, which cuts the Collector Value deeply.
Think of an Original high value Collectable Kentucky Flintlock Rifle after the State Stamps a BOLD Serials Number on the Barrel and possibly the Lock as they7 both might be considered firearms separately.
And of course they are planning to make a violation a Felony.
Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Jbiker]

I wonder how 10x or h322 would work? They both meter well for small charges .

[Chev. William]

I wonder how 10x or h322 would work? They both meter well for small charges .

I did not find "10x" listed in the QuickLOAD powders but Hodgdon H322 is so I ran a 100% fill charge plot in a .25ACP out of a 24" barrel:
Charge: 2.64 grains of Hodgdon H322 which calculates to 100.3% fill in a case of 5.05 gr H2O capacity
Bullet: 50 grain FMJ-RN seated to a cartridge length of 0.905"
Primer: assumed Small Pistol.
Results: Peak Pressure Calculated as 4,565psi; MV = 561fps; ME = 35ft-lbs; Propellant burnt =13.6% of charge; MEP = 76psi; Ballistic efficiency = 6.9%
This does no look like a promising powder for this cartridge.
Pushing the Charge up to 3.91 gr results in 148.3% fill, a HIGHLY Compressed load that calculates to yield 17,186psi Peak Pressure; MV = 812fps; MEP = 152psi; 19.2% Propellant Burnt; and Ballistic Efficiency of 9.8%
Still a Poor Choice for this cartridge.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[JSnover]

Well, it may not be practical or 'economically sound' but if I had the time and the money I could do something like that. It wouldn't be the first time someone ever wondered what the heck I was up to.

[Chev. William]

Off subject but I think this will be of interest to all:

I completed Trimming some of the Tubing (9/32" x .014" Wall sized down to .274" OD in a .25ACP sizing die) to length and assembled a pair of 'test' cartridges using a Grade 4 .25 Caliber PTL blank and a 63 grain .258" diameter RFN Lead Bullet.
I pressed the Blank in one end of a trimmed tube and, after belling the other end, seated the bullet using a .25ACP seat/crimp die.
I did run the case in far enough to crimp the case tube to the bullet just at the 'crimp groove' in the bullet.

Wednesday I took the test cartridges to my Gunsmith's shop and we temporarily assembled my strengthened pivots 1894 Stevens Action to a 'way to much head space old Stevens '.25 Stevens' Barrel. It ended up with about .080" head space form breech face to cartridge end when seated in the barrel.

This is a deliberate test to see if the tubing is suitable for continued use as a cartridge case.

The Cartridge was fired successfully.
The Blank moved back in the tube as both moved back in the chamber toward the Breech face.
The 'unsupported' blank body just forward of the original rim 'ballooned' out to form a second 'rim'.
The original Rim 'Ballooned out until it formed a "T" shaped vent hole in the upper section.
The Bullet exited the barrel.
The Fired tube case showed expansion to fit the Chamber, growing from a .274" OD before firing to a .282" OD after firing.
The Blank end had a slight 'Bell' to it.
The Bullet end still had the Crimp in it, so the bullet left with a reduced diameter 'heel' I presume.
In spite of the Venting, my gunsmith reported a 'loud muzzle blast' or 'report' so the venting was near the end of bullet travel within the barrel.
It appears the edges of the tear 'vent' were rolled away rather than bit being torn off.
No detectable damage was found in the 1894 Stevens Action, the Breech Block face is still perpendicular to the Barrel center line and at the same distance from breech face to Rear face of Receiver Barrel Socket, pivots are still straight and linkage is tight.

Conclusions:
The Tubing is adequate for use as an Adapter Case between .25 Cal PTL Blanks (of nominal .248" OD) to .25 Stevens rifle chambers ( the original cartridge was .276" diameter and the worn chambers about .283" to 284" diameter).
The tubing either should not be crimped to the bullet OR the tubing 'neck should be reamed to reduce the .014" wall to something around .008" to .009" thickness.
The Blank's wall failed rather than the tubing wall, and at that only after being greatly distorted due to the excess head space of the experiment.
Normal Head space provisions would most likely not have caused the blank rim to fail as it did in this experiment, since the Blank moved to the rear far enough so that the original rim was completely outside the design chamber rim rebate.

Best Regards,
Chev. William



Photo of my development RF project to date:
Series 1 Cases have the tube case hard against the Blank Rim.
Series 2 Cases have the Tube case spaced slightly away from the Blank Rim.
Blue uses Grade 2 PTL Blank.
Green uses Grade 3 PTL Blank.
Yellow uses Grade 4 PTL Blank.
Red sues Grade 5 PTL Blank.
All Blanks shown are .25 Caliber, .298" Rim diameter and .248" body diameter.

[Chev. William]

This Afternoon, Wednesday August 27th, I got a call form my gunsmith to come and pick up the Strengthened 1894 Stevens Favorite Action and two Stevens ".25 Stevens Long RF" barrels that he had ready for my Range testing. So i went in, paid $75.00 for the work, took the Action and two barrels home, fitted a Stock to the action. packed up the now complete rifle action and barrels with some of my 'First and Second Generation' Reloadable Rim fire cartridges, and off to the 'Angeles Shooting Ranges' for a session of testing.

It did not go well.

Every Cartridge was difficult to extract as the Action extractor would NOT hold the rim available on the cartridges.

I had numerous "light Firing pin Strikes" when attempting to fire cartridges of both designs.

Two Cartridges that did fire resulted in the case stuck in the chamber (one in each of the two barrels) and the fired blank case came out of the case without releasing the case.

One Stuck case body did come out with a Cleaning Rod inserted from the muzzle, but the other did not. In both cases the 'blank' did move back and vent to the outside due to rim failures. This is NOT Good Results but I have not yet dissected the the failures nor cleaned the two barrels as the outing also resulted in a Vehicle Start Failure that took more physical Effort than I should have exerted to get it started, so I got myself home and went to bed for a time of recovery. it is now after 2300 hours PDT as I type this 'interim Report'. I will get the rifle and barrels out of the vehicle Tomorrow morning and do the clean up, etc.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

Added 20140828 0830PDT: Started cleaning the two barrels and the 1894 Action this morning and observed that the barrels do NOT appear to be Head Spaced correctly.

Barrel #1 has a gap between Breech Block and Barrel rear face of about .025" PLUS a Rim Rebate depth of .057". The Rim of the .25 Stevens Long Rim Fire cartridge is between .045" and .050" thick. My 'First and Second Generation' Reloadable Rim Fire designs have a rim Thickness of .040" to .043" so the effective Head Space for Barrel #1 is between .030" and .040" from fully seated Rim in the Rebate to the front of the Breech face. or, measured from Breech face to front of Rebate, about .080". this is probably why I had 'Light Firing Pin Strikes' and rim 'blowout Venting' experiences with this barrel.

Barrel #2 has a Gap of about .040" between barrel rear face and the Breech Block Face when seated in the action. The Rebate is not measurable as there is still a Case body stuck in the Chamber, which interferes with the measurement.
BUT .040" is WAY TOO MUCH gap!

The Breech Face is square and parallel to the Barrel so it appears NOT to have been damaged by the 'Blowouts'.

I will be taking this action and barrels back to my Gunsmith Today for his review and corrective action.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Hickory]

I haven't read all the posts here, just the first page & last pages, but it seems that getting enough velocity is a concern with the 25 acp case. If a rimless case is needed for the project and powder enough to keep the pressure up in a barrel longer than 16 1/2" I have a suggestion.
The 5.7x28FN uses the same shell holder as the 25 acp and is a rimless case and would be longer than the 25 acp even if cut off at the shoulder.
Just another monkey wrench in the project or thought process.

[Crank]

Hickory,
That is a novel idea, however, the C.O.L. is perfect with the .25 ACP to allow the rifle to function. I think I am going to let this thread die out peacefully, but thanks for the input.

Mark

[Chev. William]

Crank,
Are you also going to let us 'die' without giving the rest of the Saga of the .25ACP Winchester Rifle?
Please, continue to give us status reports on the project and the loads and accuracy you achieve.
Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Chev. William]

Found this post on another Thread:
Crank

Boolit Master Join DateNov 2013LocationSan DiegoPosts181

psweigle,
I am the daffy SOB that built it. I am happy with the limited progress I have made with it, however, costs can be an issue. The problem centers on the fact that you are using a .251 groove depth barrel. All other .25's use .257 groove depth. The only source for a barrel is Lothar Walther (YIKES!!!), but you can get a liner in the correct size from Buffalo arms at a reduced cost. Otherwise, the only other difficulty is that nobody has a reamer for rent and purchase is the only option. I am letting that thread I started die, since it has strayed horribly. If you want to know more PM me and I can give you my contact info.

Mark

It seems "Crank" has decided that this is no longer a Viable Thread for the .25 Acp rifle discussion.
Too Bad,
Chev. William

[Chev. William]

My Marlin Model 56 Conversion from .22LR to .25ACP is getting closer as I have ordered a ".25ACP Match Grade Finish Chamber Reamer and matching "GO" gauge from 'Pacific Tool and Gauge' (PTG) and a ".25ACP/6.35 Browning Barrel Blank from 'Lothar Walther' (LW) this month.

LW is the only source I found for this caliber Barrel Blank and their normal stated tolerance on Bore and Groves dimensions is slightly less than +/-.0008 inches. The Groove diameter nominal is .250" and twist is listed as 9.8" per turn. I ordered the Barrel Blank in normal Chrome-Moly Barrel Steel as that is 'Off the Shelf' and I was able to get my payment to them in time to make this months Bulk Shipment from Europe so I am looking forward to receiving it soon.

I already have the 'surplus' Model 62 CF bolt assembly modified to fit the .25ACP head on hand and set aside for this project, so when the Reamer and Barrel are here I can turn them and the Donor Gun over to my gunsmith for fitting and assembly.

Marlin used a Steel Receiver on the Model 56 and Model 62 rifles, both of which were clip magazine fed. I found that the original Marlin magazine was unsuitable for use in the Conversion so found and purchased some 'Phoenix' ".25ACP pistol" magazines to be modified for this project.

'Phoenix' seems to have sued a .32ACP sized body to make these from and the results are a poor feeding .25ACP version that WILL be modified for relaible and smooth feeding of the full capacity of cartridges. 'Phoenix' used a molded guide strip in the front of these magazines while letting the rear ends 'slop' around and resulting in jams with 5 or more rounds in the magazine. I plan to remove the nose guide strip and add tow thin side Guide strips to hold the cartridges properly in 'single stack column position with the rim edge of one cartridge 'nested' in the extractor Groove of the one below. A new or modified follower will be fitted to clear the side strips. I will also add a 'Lump' to the rear face of the 'Phoenix' magazine to use the Marlin magazine Latch.

I intend to adjust the Marlin Stock to allow the barrel to 'free float' initially to test its Accuracy then, if needed, to add a single point of contact between barrel and stock front end.

This particular Doner Marlin Model 56 has been in the family for Decades and has had several hundred .22LR rounds, perhaps over a thousand, fired through it at paper targets and to 'remove' Jack Rabbits from local farmers fields. It is one of the Factory Serialized ones so is legal for this conversion and not one of the 'collectible' ones that were sold without Serial Numbers.

I intend to save the .22LR barrel and bolt assemblies for possible return to original condition if this experiment does not turn out happily.

Now to 'hover' waiting for the Barrel to be delivered, then again some more waiting for the Reamer and "GO" gauge to come. Perhaps I will have an early Christmas Present this year?

Best Regards,
Chev. William

Added 20141030 PS: PTG has mailed the .32 Long RF/.32 Long Colt CF Finish Reamer, and i received the .25ACP Go Gauge already so now am waiting on the "Match Grade .25ACP Finish Chamber Reamer" and the .32 Long 'GO' Gauge. Today I added the Two calibers "NOT GO" gauges to my list of Orders from PTG. Now it is 'sit back and be patient' time. Chev. William