.25 ACP rifle, what powder?

[taco650]

Would 25-20 load data be helpful? I realize the case is longer than the 25ACP. My powder suggestions lean toward medium speed such as Unique or HS-5, HS-6. Your thoughts on a shorter barrel make sense. Overall, it sounds like you are building a custom 22LR with a fatter bullet.

[Loudenboomer]

I was thinking AA#5 may help you optimize your 16.5"barrel. Not sure how it will work on your Blow back action. Allot will depend on your final boolit selection.

sounds like a good project. I Love My Win. self loaders

[Crank]

Got frisky and cut the dovetail, drilled and tapped the receiver for a Weaver base and reattached all of the hardware. Did not cold blue the last 3" of barrel or do a cut and crown just yet (I'm still on the fence).







Here are a few pictures of the bolt modifications from last year.









For some reason, at that time I didn't show the new firing pin hole, but you can see it in the other photos I posted previously.

[Crank]

Loudenboomer,
You could say I have a thing for Self Loaders also, but I think this is the only one I will keep. I have had my fun with the rest of them for now.



Mark

[Chev. William]

Crank,
I would suggest you try the "Ranch Dog" 51 grain Cast Lead R-FN bullet sold by "Carolina Cast Bullets" and Get a Copy of "QuichLOAD" (QL) software to try various powders in the .25ACP cartridge in a computer before trying them in a rifle.
I have QL and found the listed case net volume is slightly off, leading to it calculating slightly high MV for a given charge. I "tweaked" the volume number by comparing calculated results with Hodgdon .25ACP listed load performance, changing the volume until the MV matched for the Test barrel length then 'playing' with Rifle length barrels (21.75" Stevens .25 Long and 23.4" Lothar Walther (LW) blank max). Also "Ballistics By The Inch" web site has .25ACP factory load performance data in barrel lengths from 18 inches down to 2 inches.
My position is to keep the barrel at maximum length until you have tested a number of powder and charge weights to see what YOU can get from YOUR rifle. If nothing else, you could change the 'recoil spring' for a somewhat stronger one if the action is 'Too Energetic' with ejection on the slower powders at max charges.

My personal intent at the moment is getting one of my 1894 Stevens actions upgraded with stronger pins and screws then shooting .25ACP reloads out of a .25 Stevens Long chamber in its Stevens barrel. That will give me a good nominal measurements matching both the .25 Stevens and .25ACP for Bore/Groove Diameter and a 21.75" long (Muzzle to Breech Face) single shot rifle.

I intend to eventually convert a Marlin Model 56 to .25ACP using my LW barrel blank.

There are several threads, both here, and also on "AmmoGUIDE Interactive" Forum, "Shooters Forum", and "CAS City" relating to .25ACP, Stevens Favorite, and .250" Bullet rifle cartridges you might look at.
I know you will NOT be using Black Powder or its substitutes in your Winchester action (that is why Winchester chambered it for the Winchester Auto 22 in the first place) but for your information, the .25ACP can be loaded with 4.5 Grains of fffg GOEX Black Powder with a 50 grain jacketed bullet. (5 grains of Swiss BP)
Also the .25ACP is about the same length as a .25 Stevens Short RF cartridge and yields performance similar to the .25 Stevens Long RF cartridge.

Keep your progress reports coming and test any loads you use across a Chronograph to make sure you are NOT getting too hot a load.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[FergusonTO35]

Crank you are so awesome. I would advise you to check out Hodgdon Titewad. It fills the case well and meters great. My .32's love it. When Sacramento finds out about your new rifle they will be sure to ban it!

[mikeym1a]

texassako,
The only tough pill to swallow is the barrel blank. The only manufacter of one with a .251 groove depth is from Lothar Walther and they are now over $200, the last time I looked. It seemed like too much work to weld a bunch of Raven barrel together to get one long enough The other option is using Clearwater reboring, but that will also set you back about $250, but his work is excellent and you keep the parent barrel on the gun.

Mark

You can get .25acp barrels from Track of the Wolf, .251, in any length you want. I have one, 18", I think, and it looks like a pistol barrel. I also have one from Walther, which is about 1" diameter. So, you do have 2 sources to work with. As I recall, prices are not dissimilar. mikey

[Crank]

Chev, great info, thank you for the extensive input.

Ferguson, I will also see about Titewad, I have no experience with it.

Mikey, I thought Track of the Wolf only had liners, so please excuse my omission.

I mounted a Leupold 12x fixed on it, for the time being, it should provide a good baseline for testing and I can put something milder on it later. I guess I will pull it apart and crown the barrel at this length for now. The underlying reason I did this is since the original .22 Win Auto cartridge is scarce, expensive and not particularly spectacular for performance. This allows the novelty of a reloadable cartridge that does not require extensive re-engineering of the base rifle. Converting one of these to .22LR is more work than I feel is worth it, it has been done and they range from satisfactory, to downright dangerous, depending on how well the conversion was made. I also like driving people nuts figuring out what the heck they are looking at. I took a solid frame Remington #4 and turned it into a .17HMR and people get so confused when they see the brass next to the rifle, those moments are priceless.

Mark

[JHeath]

Chev, great info, thank you for the extensive input.

Ferguson, I will also see about Titewad, I have no experience with it.

Mikey, I thought Track of the Wolf only had liners, so please excuse my omission.

I mounted a Leupold 12x fixed on it, for the time being, it should provide a good baseline for testing and I can put something milder on it later. I guess I will pull it apart and crown the barrel at this length for now. The underlying reason I did this is since the original .22 Win Auto cartridge is scarce, expensive and not particularly spectacular for performance. This allows the novelty of a reloadable cartridge that does not require extensive re-engineering of the base rifle. Converting one of these to .22LR is more work than I feel is worth it, it has been done and they range from satisfactory, to downright dangerous, depending on how well the conversion was made. I also like driving people nuts figuring out what the heck they are looking at. I took a solid frame Remington #4 and turned it into a .17HMR and people get so confused when they see the brass next to the rifle, those moments are priceless.

Mark

Just tell them it is a pocket .25 auto for the man with deep pockets.

Your project, its concept and execution, and your follow-through, are all inspiring. Thanks for sharing it.

[Chev. William]

My "Playing " with QuickLOAD and the .25ACP at a limit MAP of 24000psi, a barrel length of 23.4", cartridge capacity(H2O) of 5.05cc, 50 gr bullet, yielded the following THEORETICAL suggestions:
Hodgdon Powders:
Tite Group; 1.46 gr; 24424psi; 2117fps.
HP35 ; 1.65 gr; 24598psi; 1274fps.
Universal ; 1.75 gr; 24583psi; 1341fps.
HS-6 ; 2.30 gr; 24378psi; 1312fps.
H-110 ; 2.77 gr; beyond safe limits not recommended.
Litl'Gun ; 2.68 gr; beyond safe limits not recommended.
Alliant Powders:
Red Dot ; 1.37 gr; 24731psi; 1248fps.
Green Dot ; 1.51 gr; 24500psi; 1270fps.
Bullseye ; 1.64 gr; 24726psi; 1347fps.
Unique ; 1.70 gr; 18681psi; 1258fps.
Herco ; Did not run
Pwr Pistol ; 2.04 gr; 18491psi; 1252fps.
Blue Dot ; Did not run
2400 ; Did not run
Ramshot Powders:
Zip ; 1.68 gr; 24455psi; 1279fps.
Silhowette ; 2.05 gr; 24725psi; 1334fps.
True Blue ; 2.23 gr; 24749psi; 1334fps.
Enforcer ; Did not run
Winchester Powders:
W-231 ; 1.68 gr; 24455psi; 1319fps.
WAP ; 2.05 gr; 24600psi; 1326fps.
The runs were looking at MAXIMUM THEORETICAL loads to decide which powders might be suitable for use in a Rifle with a LOCKED Breech.
The action contemplated in these runs is the Marlin Model 56 'Levermatic' design converted to .25ACP using a modified .256 Win. Mag. CF Bolt assembly with a TBD single column magazine, possibly a surplus Phoenix 10 round ones rebuilt to "properly" feed .25ACP cartridges with out jamming or binding at 5 to 7 rounds.
Be VERY CAREFUL working up loads for your Blowback action as it is not a 'locked breech' design.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Crank]

Chev,
Your input is phenominal, I think you covered more bases than in one post than has ever been discussed on the internet LOL. I promise that I am extremely aware of the potential risks with a blowback action. There are several ways to increase dwell time if needed to prevent the bolt from its initial accelleration. I will probably get my first chance to shoot it properly in about two weeks. I will try to document my results and include targets (for good or bad). As I own a Marlin 62 in .256, I believe that you will find that the bolt, at minimum, will require thinning to fit in the receiver. I believe that the 62 uses a much wider receiver than the 56 or 57. Still a very worthwhile endeavor and a fantastically quick action. I love the .256 and also have a Martini that I re-barreled for a friend, which, when he got silly and decided to sell it, I called first dibs since I had all of the work in it. I was also blessed by a friend, shortly before his unexpected passing, with an original Hawkeye that had survived a fire and I brought back the mechanicals (it still needs to be blued), it's ugly, but it shoots great.
Sorry to drift off on my own thread, but the .256 is a weak spot.

Mark

[Chev. William]

Crank,
Direct comparison of of Modle 56 .22 Bolt, Model 62 .30 Carbine Bolt, and Model 62 .256 WM Bolt found that they are the same overall size, length, width, height and basic contour. The Model 62 Bolt, as modified for .25ACP, does fit the Model 56 Receiver, which by the way is Steel also. I checked with a magnet as I read that some Model 56 and 57 receivers had been made from Aluminum Alloy, my two are both magnetic (steel), one is early and without serial number, the other is later and has a serial number, the serial numbered one is the one I will fit the .25ACP barrel to.
I bought several spare bolts from "GunParts.com" (Numerich Arms) while they had them for sale, unfortunately I only got one 30 Carbine barrel before they went 'out of Stock'.
This will allow me to fit my action with either, .22LR, .30 Carbine, .25 ACP, and if I find a .256 WM barrel, with that cartridge. I could theoretically also work up a .22WMR setup for it too.
My intent is to make the barrels interchangeable in the receiver so they can, with some work be changed to the different calibers at the time the Bolt Assemblies are changed.

Now, back to the .25ACP and related projects:
My interest in the .25ACP in the Marlin was initially 'tweaked' by the realization that the .25ACP is about the same length as a .22LR round, just larger in the body diameter. A 'hitch' is that Marlin formed their .22LR magazines such that they cannot be made to hold a .25ACP without SEVERE rework and modification plus a holy redesigned mag spring would be needed as the original is a round one held in the front part of the magazine, under the nose of the .22LR round.
A surplus 'Phoenix' nominal .25ACP 10 shot magazine has a plastic piece in the front edge to reduce the length but does not properly guide the sides of the round to prevent 'jamming' due to side to side shifting of the rounds in the Mag. It looks like they tried to use a .32ACP Mag. to hold the .25ACP round without really thinking out the differences and potential function problems. I have begun modifing one by making up some thin Delrin Plastic 'shims' to narrow the Mag. inside width, now I need ot modify the follower or make a new one to fit the narrower width. The 'Phoenix' body will come close to fitting the mag well but will need the addition of a 'retention pad' to hold it in using the original Marlin Mag. lock.
Another part of the Mag. mods is to make up 'tooling' to allow driving rivets to hold the 'shims' in place.
Also, I think I will need to make Copper Tooling to back up the position where I need the 'retention pad' welded on, to prevent weld bead intrusion into the interior of the Mag.

I intend my Marlin to have a 'Rifle length' barrel, versus the 'Carbine length', and the "Lothar Walther" (LW) Blank just meets my needs at 23.4 inches. I would prefer a 25 or 28 inch blank but that is another long lead custom order and at relatively high cost for it from LW. I was lucky and my LW Blank was purchased before the price was doubled.
Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Crank]

Chev,
My hat is off to you, for the ambitious plan you have. You certainly have done your homework and are on a solid course of action.

Mark

[GARD72977]

Great job Crank ! I have been wanting a 25 acp for a while. I have about decided to do a short barrel contender pistol. Looks like a blast. Just don't know if I should try to get in on the group buy for the mold right now or not.

[Crank]

Gard
Just price (the not terribly plentiful) FMJ offerings and a mould is the only way to go. Once you have a mould, you most likely would figure that the experimentation was worth it. I already threw my hat in the ring.

Mark

[Crank]

Okay, as promised, I have my range report. We got to the range and got set up, since it was still a hot range, I decided to start shooting at the berm to check functioning. Bullets were striking the 100yd berm and took a minute or two to get there. The gun ran through several full magazines without incident, but the vertical stringing of impacts gave me the impression that velocities were all over the place and consistency was likely to be nonexistent. We got a cold range and I set a target out at 25yds and was ready to see how the little bugger worked. I sat down and lined up the cross-hairs, slowly pulled the trigger and "poof" . I pulled the gun down and begged for a cleaning rod. I gently tapped the bullet back down the barrel and tossed it up to a squib load. I loaded up again and "poof", now I was puzzled, this was a bag of mixed brands and could it be possible that I grabbed two lightly loaded rounds? I opened a brand new box of PMC and loaded up. "poof", now I was frustrated. Long story short, it seems that the cartridge ignites, pressure builds, the case seals the chamber, the bullet accelerates down the bore, pressure drops, the case loses its gas seal, and the remaining pressure sneaks around the case, leaving an insufficient amount to get the bullet out of the now dirty barrel (lots of soot). Yes, I could have cleaned the bore and retested, but I neglected to bring any .25 cal. cleaning gear. So, what it comes down to, is I need to load up some energetic ammo and cut the barrel back, so the bullet can at least fall out of the barrel LOL. I feel confident that this will work, but the factory loaded .25ACP just doesn't have enough energy to use 23" worth of barrel. I was hoping to at least video the gun cycling through a full magazine to prove it works, but I will have to hope that you will take my word that the first 40 rounds really worked before things went downhill. Oh well, now to start loading some "Magnum" rounds, and for those concerned about too much pressure, most all of the cases never made it off the bench due to the low bolt velocity, so I have a wide margin to work with before I over-speed the action. Hopefully Mihec will get enough orders for the .25 mould to do a run for the group buy and I can load some boolits, rather than j-words. Till our next exciting adventure!

Mark

BTW, of the three bullets that failed to exit, two stopped about 6" from the muzzle and one made it to within 1/2" of the muzzle.

[Chev. William]

Crank,
Before you commit surgery on your barrel, What were the cartridges that DID cycle through your rifle and hit the 100 yard berm?
Also, what were the cartridges that went 'poof' and left the bullet in the bore?

Dirty or not, your rifle showed that at least one manufacturer of .25ACP is giving creditable performance in your rifle and another manufacturer is giving 'P-- P--r' performance in the same rifle.

I would recommend getting more of the "good manufacturer cartridges" and take them, the unmodified rifle, and your cleaning gear to another session at the Range before thinking of 'surgery' on the barrel.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Crank]

Chev,
Unfortunately, other than the known PMC cartridge, the other two cases found their way clear of the ejection port, before I could identify the brands. The ones that cycled were every headstamp you could think of. I bought a bag of 350 rounds+ of leftovers that a gunshop had. These were all of the partial boxes that they accumulated and dumped them in a bag and sold them as a lot. All of the empty cases were "smoked" with soot and the cases showed no expansion. The bullets I drove out were also very sooty and lightly engraved. I know I saved at least one of the projos and will take a picture and post it. As for the surgery, don't get too nervous, I was half joking for now and won't do anything until I get some loads put together. As for the mixed loads that initially made it to the 100yd. berm, the difference between the hottest and the weakest, was about 2 1/2-3' vertically. They were loafing along and did not get there in any great hurry. I have a shell-holder for my Auto-prime due in this week and I will throw together some loads.

Mark

[taco650]

Crank,

I think your idea about shortening the barrel is a good one given the cartridge your working with and an 18" barrel might "look" better on your rifle than a 23". I'll admit that it is perplexing that the stock 25 acp ammo wouldn't clear the barrel. I would think it would be more than hot enough because a 22LR would have no problem with that length barrel. The 25acp ammo must be loaded to be safe in old early 1900's vintage handguns.

[Crank]

taco,
I have a feeling that the pressure curve of the factory powders in the .25ACP is so fast to optimize use in itty-bitty barrels, it is over before the bullet can get out of the barrel. That is why I started this thread, I was looking for ideas to pick a powder better suited for the barrel length. Such loads with slower powders would be worthless (except as flashbulbs) out of a pistol and seeing that I haven't gotten around to building a 1911 in .25ACP (just to irritate people), I don't have to worry about a short barrel load (yet!). I will be patient and hold off on amputating the barrel until more data is in.

Mark