Fun with the 8x58R in a Swedish RB

[17nut]

Bear in mind tha the RB chamber was designed for the 227grain round nose bullet and cut long accordingly (@½" freebore or better).

[sharps4590]

It appears there's much to "bear in mind" with this old cartridge.

[Andy_P]

Ok - enough! I haven't shot mine in almost five years, but this is my incentive. Great info.

[sharps4590]

What the heck Andy, you started this thread 10 years ago!!.... Frankly, I'm glad you did and it survived!!!

[17nut]

It appears there's much to "bear in mind" with this old cartridge.

You can learn from those who have made it work 100% or go invent the wheel again all by yourself.
It is a rifle from a time when a decade ment the difference between cutting edge design and obsolete.
So there are inherent mistakes, by todays standards, in the design and if you steer around those it will be a tackdriver.

[Gunfreak25]

Interesting to see you shooting .005 oversize boolits. I am running cast in my 8x56r Hungarian which slugs .332 but the Lee .338 bullets chamber with no issues, so that is what I'm loading with. A full .006 over. Buckshot had some pretty good results doing this as did others.

I've had similar issues with H4198 and don't use it anymore as I just don't do fillers in smokeless. Personal preference only.

I've switched to higher charges of slower powders and so far the results are good.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

[sharps4590]

You can learn from those who have made it work 100% or go invent the wheel again all by yourself.
It is a rifle from a time when a decade ment the difference between cutting edge design and obsolete.
So there are inherent mistakes, by todays standards, in the design and if you steer around those it will be a tackdriver.

Don't know who said it but I try to adhere to it, "learn from other people's mistakes, you'll never live long enough to make them all yourself".

[Rohermoker]

I got mine a few years ago from Simpsons. Ive been shooting #0 buckshot (I set my caliper to .330) with a pinch of Unique. Ive not chronographed the load but will hold minute of Red Squirrel at 25 yds, and rabbits at 50yd. I have a Lee 175 mold that I'm going to try when the weather warms up.

[sharps4590]

I don't remember seeing it mentioned in this thread and while brainstorming over loads it occurred to me that for those of us using reformed 45-70 brass the 33 Winchester is very close to the 8 X 58RD. There's the obvious slight difference in bullet diameter and the 33 has a longer neck. I tried a few of the starting loads for the 33 from my old Hornady manual and none showed any signs of pressure. Nor were any particularly accurate with three of the medium rate powders showing signs of bullet tipping with a 200 gr. cast bullet. Those loads were all travelling faster than the Unique loads yet the Unique showed absolutely no signs of bullet tipping. In my rifle 15 grs. of Unique went south while 13.5 grs. shot sub 1 inch at 50 yards with the same 200 gr. bullet. It's been too windy to set up my chrono to see where I am so....not sure what can be drawn from that...yet. A friend from church gave me a new Lee 170 gr., round nose, gas checked mold so I'm gonna cast some of those and see what they do.

I understand the cartridge was originally designed/used with the 220+ gr. bullet and that is in the offing. I simply don't have the mold yet.

[Andy_P]

I don't remember seeing it mentioned in this thread and while brainstorming over loads it occurred to me that for those of us using reformed 45-70 brass the 33 Winchester is very close to the 8 X 58RD. There's the obvious slight difference in bullet diameter and the 33 has a longer neck. I tried a few of the starting loads for the 33 from my old Hornady manual and none showed any signs of pressure. Nor were any particularly accurate with three of the medium rate powders showing signs of bullet tipping with a 200 gr. cast bullet. Those loads were all travelling faster than the Unique loads yet the Unique showed absolutely no signs of bullet tipping. In my rifle 15 grs. of Unique went south while 13.5 grs. shot sub 1 inch at 50 yards with the same 200 gr. bullet. It's been too windy to set up my chrono to see where I am so....not sure what can be drawn from that...yet. A friend from church gave me a new Lee 170 gr., round nose, gas checked mold so I'm gonna cast some of those and see what they do.

I understand the cartridge was originally designed/used with the 220+ gr. bullet and that is in the offing. I simply don't have the mold yet.

The problem with loads for the 8X58RD is that the first "pressure sign" you'll see is a damaged firearm.

I primarily use a 230gr PB cast bullet, and I limit my loads to those that keep the MV for that bullet weight below 1900 fps, and then only with the slower powders, in order to keep pressures to 26K CUP and lower.

[sharps4590]

If that's the case then there were no pressure signs. Primers for all loads were still quite round with zero indications of cratering. I find it rather difficult to believe that the very first sign of pressure will be damage to the rifle, not after over 30 years of working with falling block and break action rifles in old, obsolete, out of production cartridges. The roller can't be that different. There was only 3 of the 5 cases of the 4064 load I felt were ever so slightly sticky so it was probably some other cause. Velocities should have been in the 1700-1800 range other than the longer barrel of the roller perhaps adding a few fps. Pressures should have been lower than the 33 WCF loads due to its jacketed bullet and the cast I was shooting. The H-4895 load is the same as one I see posted here.

230 gr. mold is ordered.

[FAsmus]

Gentlemen;

Yes it is true. I've enjoyed this rifle a lot - but it is time to move on.

The deal would include the cases, dies, mold and scope base.

PM me if you're interested.

Good morning, Forrest

[pcmacd]

Attachment 170112
Attachment 170113

Nice pieces!

Mine's a Plain Jane sporter with the Tang Sight from Track of the Wolf that was mentionned above. Works well, but my only gripe is that while it is adjustable for windage, you have to reset it each time you change the elevation - you can't have it all for $60.

Load development continues. I do not intend to move the 230gr PB cast bullet past 1800 fps, and then only with the slower powders, keeping pressures to 28K CUP and lower. Doing that greatly increases brass life too (with annealing every few uses).

Is this the 3" or 5" sight? Track of the wolf says the 3"is not tall enough for a Remington Rolling block. I know the sporters have different front sights, but which is your?

tx

mac

[pcmacd]

Jack, try Track of the Wolf for roller sights for the tang. I got one for 58 bucks IIRC.
Try some 4759 and see if that does anything for you. I got the best group with 13 gr of Unique 2 inches. but got fairly good groups both with 5744 and the SR4759. If you preasure up to much you will get cratered primers fairly early because of the oversize firing pin and hole. The 8MMs had the receivers rehardened and new blocks installed for the higher preasure smokeless round although it never hurts to be cautious. They are a fun rifle though.
http://www.trackofthewolf.com/(S(gja...m=RS-CREED-3-E

Try this above.

Bob

Which height is this sight, 3" or 5"?

tx

mac

[leadman]

sharps4590, the Rolling Block is different in when you do have a problem and the gun breaks the most likely location for the loose parts is in an eye socket. Use caution in loading for these old guns. There are pictures on the internet of blocks broken thru the pin holes and pins also breaking.
If you are getting sticky cases the breech block could be springing open slightly when fired.
There is a fella that sells ammo he produces here in Az. and has written a few articles for gun magazines, Bob Shell is his name. He wrote an article on a Swede RB that he had loaded up to higher velocity than a 30-06, and also managed to spread the action open some. The article may still be available on the internet. Very lucky fella.
My Swede is 150 years old so most of its history is unknown to me so I treat it gently.

[leadman]

I have found the Lyman 323470, about 170grs, Loverin style with mostly bore sized body shoots very well in my RB. I load this in front of 12grs of Unique and it is very accurate even at 100 yards and makes a good small game load.

[salon_1928]

Resurrecting this old thread again. I'm hoping to get some feed back from some of you, particularly those that have shot H4198 in their rollers. I loaded 20 rounds with this powder and took it to the range on Saturday. Powder charges were 5 each at 22.0, 22.5, 23.0 and 23.5 grains respectively. My bullet is a gas-checked 190 grain RNFP sized or dropped at 0.325" I seated the bullets just deep enough to cover the lube band which put them at a COAL of 2.818" Brass was previously fired 8x56R which was nicely fire formed behind previous loads of 11-13 grains of Unique. Prior to loading these 20 rounds I annealed my brass and full-length resized with RCBS dies. I do notice that when I full-length resize that the shoulder gets pushed back noticeably...

Off to the range I go. the first 5 at 22.0 grains show some promise. Using Unique my gun has also grouped well but shot about 6-8 inches below point of aim at 50 yards. With the H4198 it still grouped about the same but was shooting higher. At 22.5 grains my results are getting better - still grouping well and moving up closer to point of aim. Then a couple of shots into the next 5 rounds at 23.0 grains it happened - I had a puff of gas come through receiver and hit me in the face. When I extracted the shell (easily...) I could see the that the neck had barely expanded and there was significant blow back evidence on the brass. This happened again with one round at 23.5 grains and those grouped beautifully btw. They were nice and tight and pretty much point of aim. Overall my brass was dirtier and the necks clearly didn't expand as much as they have previously when loading with Unique.

So what's happening here? I'm I just too light on powder charge to get suitable pressure and a good neck seal? I read previously (Andy_P I think) of using charges up to 28 grains of H4198. I've also considered only neck-sizing from now on as I feel like I'm really working the brass when I full-length resize. This firearm is in beautiful shape btw. It's an M-67/89 where the receiver was built in 1874 and the front half of the gun in 1891. The front half looks almost brand new. I slugged it when I acquired it a couple years ago and checking my records I have 0.325" noted.

[gunboat57]

Hi, I've been developing loads off and on for my Swede roller for about 20 years. Mine has a bore dia that is about .319 and a groove dia of .329 inch. I've found the best boolit for my rifle is the Lee 8mm Hungarian 205 grain. I gas check them and size .329 dia and coat with liquid Alox. I've tried various powders but settled on IMR 4198. My groups at 50 yards are about one inch for 5 shots.
I've experienced the occasional puff of gas on my forehead and here's how I've solved it. After forming my cases out of 45-90 brass and trimming them to length, I anneal the neck, shoulder, and the upper half of the body. I make sure the lower half of the body stays cool. Then I fire form with bullseye powder and cream of wheat. I also put a dental rubber band around the base to hold the case tight against the breechblock when fire forming. After fire forming my cases are a close fit in my generous chamber, both length and diameter. Then I neck size only by inserting a .326 dia mandrel in the case and using an 8x57 Mauser Lee collet die to squeeze the neck down onto the mandrel.
Now when I shoot I'm guaranteed that the case obturates on the body whether or not the neck expands enough to seal. My case necks and shoulders might be a bit sooty, but I never get a puff of gas in the forehead.

[samari46]

Dromia, ever think about using one of the Lyman 66 adjustable for both windage and elevation?. The lyman may be hard ti find but wiliams makes one for the flatsided winchesters. Something to think on. Frank

[leadman]

salon 1928, I would not full length size the cases but neck size only. I use a Lee 8X57 Collet die for this. Due to the long freebore I seat the bullets out as far as the gun and case will allow me to. Just have to be careful with the loaded cartridges to not get dirt on the lube or knock them out of alignment.