SHOT Show Conversation > Powder Coating

[Ausglock]

I wasn't even warmed up...

[dverna]

It wasn't very good. Way too few personal attacks or belittling remarks. Yawn

I try not to stoop to personal attacks. Facts are facts. A lot more effective but less drama for the bystanders. And it gets people worked up when you do that. They start throwing all sorts of poop on the wall hoping it will stick. Like watching a drowning man grasping at straws.

Plus getting banned is not a good thing. I don't need Goodsteel "reading me my rights" like he did with those guys on the RPM/long distance ballistics thread. Far, better to see the guys with post counts like zip codes flail about.

So btroj, throw that ridiculously large hat in the ring and stir things up.!!!! Cabin fever is getting to most of us and a little spice and excitement at your expense would be most enjoyable and welcomed - LOL.

Hey Ausglock. Please get "warmed up". Please, please, please? Tell us why "pizzing around with cast rifle bullets" is a waste of time. You can skate with that over on the Hi-Tek thread with your circle of solvent sniffers, but them there's fighting words with the big dogs on the site and you will get a good whoop'n. (See how staying with the facts is so much fun?!) BTW Just joking - about you guys being solvent sniffers. I use the term with a degree of endearment.

Don Verna

PS - Love Life - happy now?

[btroj]

I, like you, prefer to avoid the banning!

I am using Hi-Tek for handguns and am reasonably happy so far. I don't know that coatings are going to be what I want on rifles. Time will tell on that but I don't have high hopes.

I think I will need to see results on my own targets or results from what I consider a reliable source regarding decent accuracy with coatings in a rifle.

[dragon813gt]

So is the current situation that the coatings work for handguns but not for rifles? I'm not reading all the threads. Just want to have an idea of what's going on.

[Beagle333]

I love PC any way I do it, but I'm definitely going to try out Hi-Tek when they quit bogarting that new green color.

[dverna]

So is the current situation that the coatings work for handguns but not for rifles? I'm not reading all the threads. Just want to have an idea of what's going on.

Dragon,

You need to define "work". Some define it as "bullets do not lead". Using this definition, all the coatings appear to work at rifle velocities up to 2500 fps and a few reports of 3000 fps

I define it as "it needs to be accurate too". So far, only two decent results at rifle velocities, and only with PC'ing.

I think there has only been one Ransom Rest test for pistol accuracy but all the coatings work well wrt no leading, no "goop" on the dies and no "smoking" at pistol velocities.

That is the "Cliff's Notes" version.

Don Verna

PS: I understand the reluctance to reading hundreds of pages of threads with so little data/information. There is a thread I started "Real Accuracy (2 moa or less) with Coated Rifle Bullets at 1800 fps or greater." that attempts to highlight "success stories" but it is getting bogged down as well - but still manageable. Four pages and 2 good reports. Not very promising at this point. The dam will break when the weather improves and a better answer is a few months away. I have considered requesting Moderator access to the above thread only to clean it up and make it more succinct but I am not sure that is allowed.

[runfiverun]

Don,,that might be doable you'd have to talk to ken. wiljen ,or willie about it though.
they/us/we might have to move the thread back and forth into the VS section, and back again, or something like that to make it happen

[Love Life]

Sort of happy...

I don't post results anymore because it's a waste of time and effort.

[dverna]

Don,,that might be doable you'd have to talk to ken. wiljen ,or willie about it though.
they/us/we might have to move the thread back and forth into the VS section, and back again, or something like that to make it happen

r5r

If it can be done without too much hassle I am willing to "trim the fat" on the thread. So far, it is not too bad so let's let it run a while longer. Once it gets to about 8 pages or so, I will make the request. I know there is a fine line to tread and I do not wish to heavy handed. I hate deleting anyone else's posts but some have little value (including some of mine). The objective is to have something that is both a living document, informative and easy to digest. We cannot expect people to wade through 100+ pages of stuff like some of these threads have grow to in order to find the few kernels of wisdom.

And I do not wish to make it a burden on the moderators either. I do not want you guys doing handstands so I can edit the thing every couple of weeks.


Love Life,
If you have any good results, it would be helpful if you would share them. There is a huge appitite for data on coated bullets. Hopefully you will reconsider.

Don Verna

[Love Life]

The threads got too combative and I got tired of trying to contribute anything of value for posterity.

I wanted answers so I jumped in. I got tired of always being critiqued by sideline players. I played with PC, Piglet, and HI-TEK and the combativeness was on all of the threads. The funny thing was all the combativeness was based off of speculation by people who had no irons in the fire.

Powder, primers, boolits, and time all equal money. I got tired of expending my resources to answer the questions of others who were not willing to do the same.

According to the bench warmers, at the end of ANY test either the test wasn't good enough, the accuracy description wasn't good enough, the boolits, coating, blah, blah, blah wasn't good enough. So I got tired of trying.

Additionally I got tired of doing free R&D for a coating manufacturer as well.

A lot is asked by many, and what is given by few is looked down upon and nitpicked with no tangible help given.

Would you want to contribute anything in that environment?

[Ausglock]

Love Life. You are spot on. there are too many sideline players, armchair commandos etc etc that do not coat, but want to bitch and moan about all the types of coatings.
I say to them " either pizz or get off the pot"
Don. you come across as a commercial lubed bullet manufacturer or a jacketed bullet manufacturer that is trying to protect your business by bad mouthing the coatings.
How about telling us what your vested interest is, considering you have stated many times that "you don't have a horse in this race"
You insinuate that the coating that has in fact been used for over 20 years in OZ is no good. Why not come down to OZ and talk to the shooters that have been using it for over 20 years. It was designed for handgun bullets. It works fine for it's intended purpose. Oz has a very small population compared to the USA. this translates to the shooting sports too. OZ rifles shooters preffer to use jacketed bullets.
Commercial bullet makers that use HI-TEK that I know of:
Topscore projectiles
Hawksbury River Bullet Company
Vindicator bullets
Ray Gray bullets
Redback projectiles
Bullzi Bullets
The Bullet Factory
Spartan Bullets
Westcastings
Susan Island Bullets
Black widow Bullets.
These are the ones that I have used in over 20 years of handgun shooting.
So. The coating has and is working to the parameters it was intended for.
To whinge about it not preforming in a situation it was not designed for is just poor form on your part.

If powder coating is working for higher velocity rifle loads, Then that is a bloody good thing. I will be playing with both coatings later this year when I get my Rem700 in 300BLK and start casting and coating for it.
Thanks to all.

[Oreo]

Erbody gotta go getting their panties in a bunch.

[Love Life]

It's the American way!!

[dverna]

Ausglock,

I have never been anything but clear.

Hi-Tek is an excellent product at pistol velocities. (And I recommend it - see some of my posts!)
PC is an excellent product at pistol velocities. (A pain to do in large quantities)

Hi-Tek has been unable to produce one decent group at rifle velocities = failure
PC has had some limited success at rifle velocities = not very promising

These are the facts as of this instant in time and my conclusions.

I am not a commercial caster or J bullet manufacturer. My interest is rifle velocity projectiles achieving at least 1.5" groups for 10 shots. Something that traditional lubes can do.

It is disturbing when I read reports from Hi-Tek of no leading at xxxxfps and then learn (upon further questioning) the product is shooting patterns - not groups. I wish Hi-Tek would stop reporting half the story, but it keeps happening.

If someone posts data that does not have the all the facts, I am critical. Because, it is so basic to report gun used, caliber, range, load used and/or chrony data and/or estimated velocity (some people will not post load data - liability issues), bullet used, sized dia., lube used, number of shots, group size, and number of groups. And when much of that information are not there, I question the test report. I understand Hi-Tek is not a shooter but, by now, he should have leaned what is needed for a useful report. He should expect to be challenged on data that is suspect and/or misleading.

BTW, listing a bunch of Aussie pistol bullet casting companies does nothing - it is not new news. It is a lame attempt to cloud the question. "Does it work at rifle velocities". And that sir, has been my question, and the question of many people "pizzing around" with cast rifle bullets.

Hope that is clear enough,

Don Verna

[Love Life]

I am with Don, and ultimately he wants the facts of accuracy. I do not believe he is a shill for any company. Unfortunately, unless I can get a ransom rest my tests are worthless, as are others for the most part.

I'm not good with a pistol. I have nerve damage that hinders things so I honestly can't say how truly accurate my pistol bullets are with HT, but I can say MY accuracy has not changed between coated and wax lubed.

I have applied the scientific method to many aspects of coated boolits. From the casting to the coating to the baking and to the shooting. I have had great success and tangible information has been gleaned with everything but the accuracy part.

I am the limiting factor there, so my tests are accomplishing nothing for anybody but me.

I've said it before that HI-TEK needs to get his coated boolits into the hands of somebody who can do extensive ransom testing.

Don is right. What good is no leading if the ransom shows true accuracy is not up to snuff?

[Ausglock]

But you are still missing the point.
The point is it is not designed for rifle loads.
Why try to make a silk purse from a sow's ear?

[Love Life]

^^^Correct.

I reckoned that was the case when I first started playing with the stuff.

[dverna]

"I do not believe he is a shill for any company." _ Thanks Love Life

Google Donald Verna - the info on Linkedin is out of date as I have been retired since 2012. My address has changed since I moved last year to northern MI. I have used my real name since joining the forum in 2009. No games. Nothing to hide.

Ausglock wrote: "But you are still missing the point.
The point is it is not designed for rifle loads."

So, after all this circle jerking, you state it is not designed for rifle loads! But it claims to be good for 5.56 velocities (Gateway Bullet site)!! I give up.

I truly regret this thread has been completely hijacked. But enough.

Don Verna

[Love Life]

To me, none of the coatings have allowed us to achieve true jacketed performance in rifles. I'm talking full snort loads that are sub-moa in multiple rifles with minimal development. Traditionally lubed boolits haven't even achieved that status.

When I can coat X bullets, and load them sub-moa by just adding powder, primer, etc, at full jacketed velocities, stuff them in X rifle, and shoot sub-moa, then we will have achieved TRUE jacketed performance.

When cast boolits (coated or traditional lubed) act like a Match King or Berger Hybrid, then somebody can claim true jacketed performance.

2/3 speed of jacketed, but with same accuracy does not count as TRUE jacketed performance.

[Ausglock]

Bingo... we have a winner.
If you want jacketed performance with full power high velocity bullets, use jacketed.

Gateway is not the coating manufacturer. he is an End user. He may have personal info re 5.56 velocities.

Don. if you like, Send me some of your cast, unsized bullets. I'll coat them in the best coating that I am currently using for 357 and 44 mag loads doing 1800 to 2270fps. these are really light bullets.
That way, I can supply all the data for the coating process and you can then do your own data collection at your end.
Sounds like a plan?
If you want to Pm me and we can sort it out.
Thanks.