You mean the one that was supposed to be released at least a year ago but hasn't shown up on the shelves yet. People have cancelled their orders because it's taken so long. And I have an idea of why they aren't released yet, heat. Having the electronics of the PID that close to a lead pot is not conducive to a long life.Originally Posted by Maximumbob54
Maximium,
The Australian commercial casters are reportedly using Hi-Tek for pistol ammo and it works very well. The time required for two or three coat/bake cycles is outweighed by the pain of standing up bullets for PC coat/bake. The Aussies are not dumb. If they could save money and get an equal (or better?) product with PC they would do it.
Anything can be done if someone spends enough money. But commercial casters can use low tech cement mixers to coat with Hi-Tek and spread bullets on a tray to cure the coating. No standing up bullets to coat and keeping them erect and separated to bake!
Unless PC does something for pistol bullets that Hi-Tek does not do, I think Hi-Tech will own the coated pistol bullet market. But even there, Hi-Tek affects productivity. instead of running bullets once through an automated Star/Magna, there is the added time and expense of coating and baking. Will the bulk of the market pay a slight premium for bullets that work easily in automatic bullet feeders and that do not smoke? Not likely unless it is forced to. Bayou sells Hi-Tek 180 gr .40 cal for $95/1000, compared to lubed bullets (Dardas) for $74/1000. Berry sells copper coated bullets .38 bullets for $114 and lubed for $87. Where will PC'ed bullets fall? That is the question.
I think PC will remain a home made endeavor for a long time. Anyone who wants shinny coated bullets can buy Berry bullets for a premium of about 30%. Or, if just a coated bullet is desired, for a 20% premium for Hi-Tek. And so far the market is not making a huge exodus to coated bullets.
For many shooters, cost is the driving force. Coated bullets will "take off" when more and more indoor ranges prohibit exposed lead bullets.
I can only argue my point so much if minds are already made up in the first place. If Lyman did botch their R/D on the Mag 25 then so be it but I doubt they are dropping it. Either way it still shows they are listening to what the caster wants even with casting being a still niche market. As for the PC upcharge, I don't know what to say. I know others and myself find it compelling enough that we are still doing it. As soon as I figured out how to do it I was shocked at how easy it is.
Lyman is way late in delivering the new pot. At this point they have lost a fair number of sales.
Powder coating won't get any real attention from Lyman until many commercial forms a re selling powder coated bullets. I figure that in 10 years it may happen, if powder coating ever gets use in commercial cast.
The reality is that powder coating is being used by very few casters even amongst members of this site and we are less than 1 percent of all casters. Not much money to be made there....
I canceled my lyman pot order.
Lyman did not have their new pot at the show. I asked them about it and thy said it missed the shipment with the other samples. They had no idea when they might ship. Also changed the subject really fast.
And that speaks volumes.....
That's because they can't get it to last. It's an obvious design flaw. While it looks nice w/everything in one package. It's not where you want a PID. We have issues w/ UV sensors on burners not lasting long. And they're not sensitive electronics like a PID.
That may be due in part to it being a very recent "discovery" as an alternative to traditional lubing.
BING!!! We have a winner!!! But I think that is changing day by day at this point.
jeez you'd think lyman would be all over the powder coat thing,,,,,, they already make their molds the perfect size for a .002 coating.
just the return, and re-work time alone would save them thousands.
R5R - that is a jab?
Whatever!
When I look at the PC process I see something that will be very difficult to commercialize. Having to stand up bullets for coating and keeping them that way to bake will not be easy. That is why I believe Hi-Tek will take over the commercial coated market.
Some of you do not factor in the time to do things. For you, it is a "labor of love" and time is irrelevant. But in business, time is money. Commercial casters are not going to invest in the capital equipment needed to PC thousands of bullets per hour when Hi-Tek uses Low-Tech production methods that work. PC is poised to be strictly a home process. it does not stand much of a chance against Hi-Tek. If the big boys are monitoring this site, they have come to the same conclusion. You may think they are all stupid - but you are incorrect.
None of the "big boys" will be interested in developing PC equipment for a home cast bullet market that will need to compete with $60 HF guns, $5 powder and Wally World ovens. Not only is there almost no market volume - there is no profit margin. Again, they are not stupid.
Look at the current threads. We have thousands of members and I doubt more than 50 are PC'ing. I am one of those "lurkers" who is waiting to see if PC'ing is worth the effort. For me, it comes down to achieving jacketed accuracy (or close to it) at rifle velocities. How "Purdy" the bullets look is of little consequence. There are hundreds of posts of "prudy" bullets and the accompanying "back slapping" that make it appear coatings are a big deal. It is not.
In some ways it is like the Extreme Lube thread but with a much less meaningful work. We see a few handfuls of interested parties growing threads to over 100 pages. Do not misinterpret. This is not a condemnation. It is meant to demonstrated just how small the market is.
I have followed the major threads and my interest is high. But the question remains, "Where's the beef?"
Don Verna
popper: not at powder coating.
more an observation on lyman molds as of late.
Dang it Don, you can't go bringing in reason and logic to an emotional discussion.
I agree entirely on the powder coating, too hands on to be commercially viable. Hi-Tek has been proven, in Oz, to be commercially viable.
Lyman won't get into this unless they see a huge market. A handful of guys here isn't gonna even be worth talking to.
I 99% agree with Don. 1% I see the possibility for someone to figure out how to mechanize and automate the whole pc process. In that case a small-medium sized bullet manufacturer that already specializes in cast lead boolits could expand their product line. That's as far as I see this going.
Couldn't something like a bullet collator on a press be used to drop bullets nose up on a conveyor belt being fed through a continuous spray booth with an oven immediately following that? I've seen the spray booths and ovens that work continuously for powdercoating. There is a manufacturer here in town that does that, though most of what they powdercoat hangs from and overhead tracks. The wheels are turnin....
Thanks guys,
I admit it irks me when people make comments that insinuate upper management and senior executives do not care about their business, do not make an effort to stay current, do not look at ways to increase market share, do not look for new markets, or are too dumb to seize an "obvious" opportunity. You see, I was one of those guys for many years and I worked in manufacturing. I got to know a lot of my competitors; and they were just as committed to the business as I was, and they were just as talented.
I was in a different business, but it is a safe bet that Lyman, RCBS, etc view and handle their business not much differently than I (and my competitors) did. In the end, you need to make a profit and, if possible, an "obscene" profit - at least until the competition catches up or the patents expire.
I just finished a pissing contest on the Simple Hi-Tek thread that I should never have gotten into. (Damn cabin fever!!! - that is my excuse anyway). I have been accused of being unfair when I was hammering home the facts. Facts they do not want to hear. AND I BELIEVE THEY HAVE A GOOD PRODUCT!!! GRRRR!! I wonder if the solvents have affected them - LOL.
It is zero this morning. I have two new Lee molds (yes, I am going to try the cheap stuff), a new Lyman, a new NOE, and two new MiHec's to play with when the weather improves. Then, I will have less time to spend on this site and have more fun making bullets and testing loads. I have 20 sticks of Lars 2500+ and Red to test - no PC for me - yet. Waiting for the "2 MOA at 1800 fps+" thread in the Coatings sub-forum to show more success stories (two so far).
Don Verna
What pissing contest? I love a good poo flinging session!!
It wasn't very good. Way too few personal attacks or belittling remarks. Yawn
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