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Thread: 357 sig

  1. #21
    Boolit Grand Master
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    I will post this next with a suggestion that I just looked at an LCP2 and two M and P 40s, and a 9mm, 40 and 45 Shield and an EC9s. None are headspacing on the extractor with any cases I have.

    A 1911 is even less likely to.

    The chamber ledge near the start of the rifling for straight wall and even bottleneck is there for a reason. It is functioning most of the time as a head spacing surface is why. I will suggest that extractor headspacing may be more fiction than fact.

    With bottlenecks the handloader may choose to size such that the case shoulder controls headspace. Factory ammo likely has the shoulder so far back the case mouth does that job.
    Last edited by 35remington; 01-21-2019 at 12:09 AM.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tackleberry41 View Post
    Case mouth on a bottle neck for only this single cartridge seems...whatever. Seen it said its the mouth. All I know is, those converted 40S&W run fine, be the shoulder holding them back. Not all 40S&W, so far its been PMC brass thats consistently long enough. Long enough where with forming you can square the case mouth so it will flare and crimp on a cast bullet. Other brands are generally short, trimmer doesn't touch them, or just a little spot, can't get a good roll crimp. The Lee factory crimp does a better job on the shorter case than it does 357 sig brass. I fiddled with it, working backwards from length required to get that bullet to feed thru a magazine, trimmed a case back till it was at the crimp groove. Which is right about length of a formed PMC 40S&W case. Linotype, gas check, same as used in my 357mag.

    Found 800x gives best velocity with that weight, just harder to meter.
    Thanks for the info.
    You got me sorting my brass pile of .40s for PMC headstamp.
    Resized to .357sig, they measured about 0.010"-0.015" shorter than once-fired.
    Loaded some 125g LRFNs up to crimp groove with AA#9.
    Crimped with LFCD, they function well on my G22 with the conversion barrel.

  3. #23
    Boolit Master
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    I used the longest .40 S&W brass for my .357 Sig and they measured about 0.010"-0.015" shorter than once-fired and they worked fine in my G22 with the Barsto conversion barrel.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by 35remington View Post
    I will post this next with a suggestion that I just looked at an LCP2 and two M and P 40s, and a 9mm, 40 and 45 Shield and an EC9s. None are headspacing on the extractor with any cases I have.

    A 1911 is even less likely to.

    The chamber ledge near the start of the rifling for straight wall and even bottleneck is there for a reason. It is functioning most of the time as a head spacing surface is why. I will suggest that extractor headspacing may be more fiction than fact.

    With bottlenecks the handloader may choose to size such that the case shoulder controls headspace. Factory ammo likely has the shoulder so far back the case mouth does that job.
    This doesn’t explain all those people who shoot 40S&W in 10mm guns.
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  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by ioon44 View Post
    I used the longest .40 S&W brass for my .357 Sig and they measured about 0.010"-0.015" shorter than once-fired and they worked fine in my G22 with the Barsto conversion barrel.
    That's what I'm hoping for in my next range visit...if all works out I'll have good use of my 40 brass pile

  6. #26
    Boolit Grand Master
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    But it does explain people who shoot the right cartridge in guns chambered for that cartridge and whether or not the extractor is headspacing in that much more relevant situation. Extrapolating from the fact that 40 can be shot in 10mm to posit that most straightwall cartridges headspace on the extractor sounds like something someone has repeated as fact after hearing it somewhere, but not actually looked into it themselves.

    I can go into considerable detail in explaining how I know what I know.

    I am suggesting that those here that say that most straightwall cartridges headspace on the extractor have never looked into it, because if they had, they probably would not be saying it.
    Last edited by 35remington; 01-21-2019 at 02:00 PM.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sig556r View Post
    That's what I'm hoping for in my next range visit...if all works out I'll have good use of my 40 brass pile
    Just got off the range with the .357sig converts using 120g TCs & 128g RFNs & they all cycled fine. The TCs with light crimp are fun to shoot while the RFNs crimped to groove seems a tad hot with 12g AA9.

  8. #28
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    Regardless of what the cartridge headspaces on, I've shot a lot of Sig in a G31, a converted G35 and a 20" T/C Contender carbine. 125s are easy to drive to 1350+ from a 4" barrel and 90 grain projectiles at 1600+ with the 6" G35 barrel. I haven't hotrodded cast in the carbine but 121 Hornadys will do MOA at 2000fps (a load I would NOT use in an auto-loading pistol).

    I have my sizing die set to bump the shoulder on pistol brass and I only neck-size the carbine brass and keep it separate from the pistol brass.

    Reloading Sig is no different than any other cartridge IMO.

  9. #29
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    I've been loading the 357 Sig for years, I also use the 40 S&W sizer then the 357 Sig sizer, no lube required doing it this way. I load the Lee 125gr RNFP and actually crimp in the lube groove to prevent setback. Works well.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by 35remington View Post
    But it does explain people who shoot the right cartridge in guns chambered for that cartridge and whether or not the extractor is headspacing in that much more relevant situation. Extrapolating from the fact that 40 can be shot in 10mm to posit that most straightwall cartridges headspace on the extractor sounds like something someone has repeated as fact after hearing it somewhere, but not actually looked into it themselves.

    I can go into considerable detail in explaining how I know what I know.

    I am suggesting that those here that say that most straightwall cartridges headspace on the extractor have never looked into it, because if they had, they probably would not be saying it.
    When I’m saying it I’m quoting Dean Grinnell, who did extensive and well-documented experimentation with under length cases in the 45 acp in a 1911. That was Grinnell’s conclusion, and I have a lot of reasons to respect his findings.
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  11. #31
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    We are not interested in deliberately selected or purposely made under length cases. We are interested in the cases factories actually produce and reloaders actually use. This invalidates findings where the experimenter uses short cases.

    Handloader magazine goofs on the issue as well. Simple measurement anyone can do will clarify the matter and remove it from “they said this so I am believing it” line of reasoning.

    The idea that the extractor headspaces the majority of the time is not that hard to discredit.

    A 1911 has to have very short cases to headspace on the extractor because of the great distance the extractor lets the case go forward of the breechface. Shorter by a very noticeable amount that most any handloader has in his inventory.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by 35remington View Post
    We are not interested in deliberately selected or purposely made under length cases.
    I am, especially in the instance where people make 357 Sig brass from 40S&W cases that come out of the die with only the tiniest bit of a neck.

    We may be having a discussion that’s based on semantics. What I’m trying to say is that in most autoloaders the extractor provides a positive limit on excessive headspace such that many guns continue to be reliable with cases that would otherwise dramatically fail a headspace measurement. The forward movement of the case against the firing pin blow is eventually retarded by the extractor even if the shoulder or mouth never make contact.

    The fact that the extractor provides positive headspacing (via retention of the case) can be shown by the fact you can slip a loaded round into an unmounted slide in many guns and it will just hang there being retained by the spring pressure of the extractor. That’s what I’m referring to, and while it doesn’t meet the technical definition of ‘headspace’ it meets the practical one.
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  13. #33
    Boolit Grand Master
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    The idea that most autoloading or straightwall cases headspace on the extractor as stated earlier in this thread is certainly quite wrong. That is specifically what I am objecting to, and with good reason. It is not a semantic point.

    It is much more accurate to say that cases of the correct type shot in their intended chamber do not headspace on the extractor in the vast majority of instances. Extractor headspacing is absolutely not the frequent occurrence it is made out to be to the extent it can blithely be considered the default occurrence.

    It is also not an elusive point, but rather quite easy to determine. In a practical sense the chamber stop shoulder headspaces the brass far, far more often than the extractor ever does

  14. #34

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check