The Rebirth of the 200-grain .38 Special Super Police Cartridge

[rockrat]

I have a 200gr NOE SWC mould, might have to try a few.

[LouisianaMan]

Working with the 358430 and similar 200g bullets, I've devoted most of my efforts to loading the .38 S&W cartridge. At those lower velocities, I noticed a clear tendency in water jugs: at velocities around 575-625, the bullet destabilized quickly enough to begin curving and tumbling in jugs 1-2, while retaining enough momentum to penetrate about 5 jugs. As I reached about 700, the tendency was to shoot through 6 jugs and display minimal yawing. The faster I pushed it, the deeper and straighter it drilled.

In short, I simply verified what the British Army tests seem to have concluded, which is why they standardized their .380 Mk1Z at a seemingly lazy MV of 590 fps. At that speed, the heavy 200g .38 bullet would (and will) handily penetrate an enemy soldier, destabilize and yaw, even tumble, carry deep into the opponent due to its momentum, and do so with mild report and recoil.

Combined with the Enfield's truly excellent pointing and handling qualities and a deceptively smooth and short DA action, the British soldier had a handgun tailor-made for delivering quick bursts of 2-3 shots using point-shooting techniques laid out in their 1937 manual and subsequently made famous by Fairbairn and Sykes in "Shooting to Live with the One-Hand Gun." https://ia801303.us.archive.org/26/i...0Fairbairn.pdf

They had standardized those techniques with the Shanghai Municipal Police in hundreds of shootouts from the 1910s up to the outbreak of WWII. Returning to Britain, they trained British Commandos, SOE agents, and US Army Rangers in those techniques, as well as quite some number of British soldiers. My guess is that units sent officers and key NCOs to such courses, then used returning graduates to inculcate soldiers with the techniques sketched out in the Army's 1937 manual.

Fairbairn and Sykes emphasized relentlessly that handgun combat was close, fast, hard, rough & tumble. It wasn't sniping--no potting away at a distance--and they considered "stopping power" to be a myth using handguns and non-expanding bullets. Accordingly they emphasized SPEED above all else: shoot first, shoot 2-3 round bursts fast and pointing instinctively, get solid hits in the opponent's body. That would do the trick or at least tip the scales, and you might well need to finish your opponent in hand-to-hand combat. They preferred the .45 Colt Army automatic, .45 Colt New Service, and .455 Webley, but I imagine they considered British wartime conscripts decently well-served with the .38 Enfield revolver: handy, easily manageable, instinctive function and pointing, fairly soldier-proof, and a bullet heavy enough to bust through an enemy soldier's vitals at close range.

Having never shot living things with my .38-200, Super Police, or .38 SPL Super Police ammo, I'm unable to judge whether we're better served with a slow, tumbling 200g blunt LRN or a faster, more stable one. I suspect the damage they inflict depends far more on whether they strike a bone directly, hit a glancing blow, travel through soft tissue only, strike a blood vessel, critical organ, or nerve. Or a heavy belt buckle or thick wallet.

[Iowa Fox]

Just some guy writing an article. Firearm and bullet technology have come a long way since the snub nose 38 special with heavy bullets. Especially for law enforcement of any kind.

[gwpercle]

I like the 200 grain weight but after years of reading Elmer Keith , can't help but think a flat wadcutter nose , like the Lyman 358432 , would offer better terminal performance than the round nose design would .
Gary

[Outpost75]

I like the 200 grain weight but after years of reading Elmer Keith , can't help but think a flat wadcutter nose , like the Lyman 358432 , would offer better terminal performance than the round nose design would .
Gary

This bullet from Accurate is a stone killer.

195 grains in 1 to 30 tin-lead from Roto Metals, 880 fps with 8.4 grains of Alliant #2400 in .38 Special 4" barrel S&W .38-44 Heavy-Duty.

Attachment 256036 Attachment 256037

[LouisianaMan]

GW,
I'm in Baton Rouge too, so Geaux Tigers!

The bullet I carry in my .38 S&W snubs is exactly the kind you mean, in a heavy weight to boot. It's the NOE group but mold .360-200, a 200g LSWC with a hefty .28" meplat, which I can bump slightly to .32".

Over 2.5g W231 in my 4" S&W Mod. 33-1, it's good for 630 fps, 6 jugs in a straight line, full-caliber hole and violent impact. From a 2" Mod. 32-1, it runs about 560 fps and does the same thing for 5 jugs. I typically carry that load in my I frame Terriers, but boost it slightly to 2.8g W231 for J frame carry and increase the vels. to about 675 and 600, respectively. I get the same performance with Bullseye, reducing the charges to 2.2g to equate to 2.5g W231, and 2.5g BE to duplicate the 2.8g W231 loading.

For CC/SD, these loads are manageable in close-range rapid fire; hit hard and cut a nice, square hole; ensure full penetration, to include crushing its way through heavy clothing, bone, raised arms, etc. With .38 snubs, even in .38 Special, HPs have a finicky reputation when it comes to expansion, penetration, and wound channel. The 200g LSWC solve the problems of penetration and wound channel reliably and consistently, albeit sacrificing the possibility of expansion and enhanced cutting effects. For my specific purposes and F/S point shooting style, the high trajectory of heavyweight bullets at 25-50 yds. is a non-issue. If I somehow had a valid SD need to use my carry guns at such ranges, I'd have to use carefully sighted fire and aim about 6" below the desired POI.

This bullet from Accurate is a stone killer.

195 grains in 1 to 30 tin-lead from Roto Metals, 880 fps with 8.4 grains of Alliant #2400 in .38 Special 4" barrel S&W .38-44 Heavy-Duty.

Attachment 256036 Attachment 256037

I like the 200 grain weight but after years of reading Elmer Keith , can't help but think a flat wadcutter nose , like the Lyman 358432 , would offer better terminal performance than the round nose design would .
Gary

[Thin Man]

The shop where I work has a history of accepting donations of unwanted ammunition, usually estate left-overs. These donations commonly find their way to my work bench for disposal. One such recent event yielded 7-8 boxes of assorted .38 Special of mixed loads, mostly WC in age-old tarnished cases. Then there was a full box of Western Super X .38 Special Super Police ammo carrying the 200 grain lubaloy bullet in nickel plated cases. I took out a few rounds and the projectiles were a gold plated color with the expected blunt round nose profile. However, each nose carried a groove around the nose right where the rounded nose blends with the flat side of the bullet body. I began to question whether someone had assembled this ammo from component bullets, or had cast and plated them for color and I was seeing the top punch witness mark from having been sized and lubed. After looking more closely at the full box of ammo I determined this was original factory ammo that was packed without dividers in the box. The rounds touched each other and were stacked "bullet up, bullet down" as was the Western practice in the day. This box of ammo had been carried along with the owner in his car (perhaps?) and jostled together for so long that the rims of the cases had carved grooves completely around the nose of each adjacent bullet! The box is reasonably intact though somewhat soiled. The specs posted on the bottom of the box state "Muzzle Velocity 730 fps / Muzzle Energy 236 ft. lbs." It is safe to predict this box and contents will make their way to my estate exactly as they are today.

[RU shooter]

This bullet from Accurate is a stone killer.

195 grains in 1 to 30 tin-lead from Roto Metals, 880 fps with 8.4 grains of Alliant #2400 in .38 Special 4" barrel S&W .38-44 Heavy-Duty.

Attachment 256036 Attachment 256037

Similar in shape to the 190 gr ranch dog bullet I load for my 686 . Indeed it does smack whatever it hits with authority

[dverna]

Glad this thread got resurrected. Very informative.

[LouisianaMan]

Sounds like they're lubricated with Lubaloy, as was often the case with Western and Winchester ammo back in the day.

The shop where I work has a history of accepting donations of unwanted ammunition, usually estate left-overs. These donations commonly find their way to my work bench for disposal. One such recent event yielded 7-8 boxes of assorted .38 Special of mixed loads, mostly WC in age-old tarnished cases. Then there was a full box of Western Super X .38 Special Super Police ammo carrying the 200 grain lubaloy bullet in nickel plated cases. I took out a few rounds and the projectiles were a gold plated color with the expected blunt round nose profile. However, each nose carried a groove around the nose right where the rounded nose blends with the flat side of the bullet body. I began to question whether someone had assembled this ammo from component bullets, or had cast and plated them for color and I was seeing the top punch witness mark from having been sized and lubed. After looking more closely at the full box of ammo I determined this was original factory ammo that was packed without dividers in the box. The rounds touched each other and were stacked "bullet up, bullet down" as was the Western practice in the day. This box of ammo had been carried along with the owner in his car (perhaps?) and jostled together for so long that the rims of the cases had carved grooves completely around the nose of each adjacent bullet! The box is reasonably intact though somewhat soiled. The specs posted on the bottom of the box state "Muzzle Velocity 730 fps / Muzzle Energy 236 ft. lbs." It is safe to predict this box and contents will make their way to my estate exactly as they are today.

[country gent]

One thing that 200 grn load excelled a was shooting bowling pins. My wife used it in her 357 loaded to around 850 fps. Hit the Pins hard and took them off the table well. It wasnt the factory load but a hand load. Very accurate and worked well

[KCSO]

You makin' me feel old, I use to carry some of those!

[pettypace]

Interesting. I'd like to see a test in calibrated ballistic gelatin.

Bill

I don't have any tests in calibrated ballistic gelatin to offer, but here' s a picture from a test I made some time ago in Clear Ballistic gel:



These are 207 grain bullets from a SAECO mould fired from a .38 S&W Regulation Police revolver with a 4" barrel at about 600 ft/s.

This block of C-B gel was actually the second of two ammo can size blocks. So these five slugs had already penetrated 11" of gel before entering this block from the left. The C-B gel penetrations were something like 12", 13", 14", 14", and 16" for an average of abou 14". All five bullets tumbled. That is, they did a 180 degree flip ending up base forward.

At the time of this test, I assumed penetration in C-B gel was the same as penetration in validated ordnance gelatin. That assumption was wrong. So, instead of an average penetration of about 14", it's probably closer to about 11" in validated ordnance gel. Let's use that for the sake of discussion.

Here are graphs of penetration and wound mass from a simulated test in 10% ordnance gel of a .36 caliber 207 grain round nose bullet at 600 ft/s. The 31" of penetration and the 17 grams of wound mass are pretty close to what we'd get from the graphs and tables in MacPherson's Bullet Penetration book.



But this simulation assumes a non-tumbling bullet. There's a big difference between a bullet that sails through 31" of gelatin and one that tumbles to a stop in, say, 11" of gelatin. Obviously, the gelatin must have put a much greater force on the bullet to stop it in such a short distance. And if the gelatin put a greater force on the bullet, by Newton's Third Law, the bullet must also put a greater force on the gelatin. So, we'd expect more wound mass. But how much more?

I think a physical argument could be made for the conjecture that a tumbling bullet will produce the same wound mass as a larger caliber bullet of the same weight, same velocity, and same penetration depth.

The graphs below predict the penetration for .60 caliber 207 grain bullet at 600 ft/s to be about 11" with a wound mass of about 23 grams. If the conjecture above is correct, then the wound mass of the tumbling bullets in the C-B gel above might be about the same.



Now, if all this makes sense, it looks like the tumbling .38 S&W bullets have made a significant gain in wound mass as compared to the non-tumbling and over-penetrating bullet in the first graph. Certainly, 23 grams is better than 17 grams.

But as has been mentioned in earlier posts above, a target wadcutter, say 148 grains at 650 ft/s, actually produces significantly better penetration and slightly more wound mass. Here are the simulation graphs:



But just to keep the pot stirred... Consider the graphs below simulating the penetration and wound mass for a 207 grain bullet at 600 ft/s that stops in 17" of validated 10% gel. That bullet would have a predicted wound mass of 27 grams -- fully the equal of .45 hardball. So, maybe the Brits did strike on just the right combination to give their .38/200 Webleys the same "stopping power" (or should I call it "wound trauma incapacitation?") as a .45?

[DCP]

https://www.luckygunner.com/lounge/t...-38-special-p/

Federal HST .38 Special +P Review and Ballistic Gelatin Test

[pettypace]

https://www.luckygunner.com/lounge/t...-38-special-p/

Federal HST .38 Special +P Review and Ballistic Gelatin Test

Yes... But what's the lesson?

The brick of C-B gel (about half way down that link with five HST's from a S&W 342) is less than impressive. JHP penetration that is marginal in C-B gel will not likely meet FBI minimum penetration standards in validated 10% ordnance gel.

I wouldn't be surprised if the HST's shown in that link correspond to less than 10" penetration in validated 10% ordnance gel. And if that's true, then those HST's from the 342 might actually be significantly less effective than target wadcutters from the same gun.

In Bullet Penetration Duncan MacPherson calculated wound mass using a "penetration factor" that penalizes under-penetration. He summarized his conclusions in Table 11-6 shown below:



The table shows only 14 grams of wound mass for a 9mm JHP penetrating only 10" in validated 10% ordnance gel and 24 grams for a 9mm "cylinder" (wadcutter).