Good load for a 38-40

[andym79]

As some of you guys may have read on another post. I have just bought an 1892 (1903) in 38-40 and so will be looking for good loads for it! Normally I simple consult my Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook, the 4th edition however doesn't list any 38-40 loads for rifle only pistol!

The 3rd edition for a 175gn bullet lists;

Red Dot 5.5 1080 — 9.0 1485
700X 5.5 1085 — 9.0 1505
Green Dot 6.0 1090 — 9.5 1480
PB 7.0 1155 — 10.0 1510
Unique 7.0 1115 10.5 1515 —
SR-7625 80 1210 11.0 1560

i have none of these powder on my shelf, and I am not keen on using really fast powder that occupies 30% of the cartridge! I have had a lot of luck with light loads using trail boss in the 30-30 and with the 45-70!

I m looking for around 1050-1100fps or whatever is likely to be accurate up to a maximum of 100yds! The projectile will be approximately 2 alloy 180gn RNFP.

Any suggestions?

Thanks

[smkummer]

From Alliants 2002 reloader guide:13.0 grains 2400=1305 FPS 13,400 PSI, 25.8 grains reloader 7=1745 FPS 13,500 PSI

From Lyman's 45th edition (1970) unique 6.8 grains=1190 FPS or 10.2=1582 2400 17.0=1249 or 23.6=1980 IMR4227 19.0=1269 or 26.0=1996 FPS A Winchester 92 was the test gun with a 20 in. barrel no pressure figures were given.

[ajjohns]

The above listing of the RL 7. Saying 25.8 grains making 1745 at 13,500. There's a post I have saved from some time back from w30wcf saying around 1400 fps for the same psi and 25.8 gr. load. He'd got it from a Hercules pamphlet from the 90's. Which is an accurate listing? He was talking about the load in a 73 Winchester which doesn't have near the error factor a 92 has. And the spread of velocity between the two listings - to me - could be a matter of having a bunch of scrap metal in your hands to having a sweet shooting rifle. Not saying anybody here is wrong, just don't wanna ruin my 73.

[fouronesix]

When you look at data for the 38-40, determine what gun (barrel length) was used.
Chances are very good the 700-850 fps data out of a normal pistol (revolver) length will generate the fps you are looking for, 1000-1100 fps, out of the Win M92.

[Good Cheer]

In a '92 it can be loaded plumb amazing versus a '73. But, Dad made meat with the '73 so there's a lot to be said for a long heavy barrel.

[andym79]

When you look at data for the 38-40, determine what gun (barrel length) was used.
Chances are very good the 700-850 fps data out of a normal pistol (revolver) length will generate the fps you are looking for, 1000-1100 fps, out of the Win M92.

I have Trailboss, H4227, H4198 and Varget! I figure Trailboss or H4227 may be the best powder for cast bullets in a 38-40, the other powder would be too slow for the loads I am trying to achieve!

[fouronesix]

You're probably right about the Trailboss or 4227 being the better powders for what you're wanting to achieve. While the 92 is plenty strong for fairly fast loads with medium burn or fast dense powders, I've stayed with those loads that won't stress original 92s, 73s or Colt SAAs while eliminating the possibility of double charge (Trailboss). If you have a chronograph or access to one you can easily determine what is going on as your start low and work up.

If your 92 is sound (no reason to assume it is not) and the brass is good, I'd start at 4.5-5.0 gr Trailboss and check accuracy and leading. I can't say about the #2 alloy or your exact bullet style, lube, etc. I use a traditional style RNFP flatbase bullet of about 8-9 BHN (20:1 alloy) which is quite a bit softer than the #2 alloy your casting. My original 73s and 92s are fully capable of groups less than 1" @ 50 yards with those loads.

[bubba15301]

try 18 to 20 grains of h4227with the 180if you want to fill the case, blackpowder will do it nicely;

[Speedo66]

Alliant Powders Reloading Guide shows a Cowboy Action handgun load of 5.3g of Bullseye behind a 180g. lead bullet at 810fps.

I use 5g. of TrailBoss in my original '73 pushing a 180g. lead bullet. Mild, but accurate, load in that rifle.

These are the bullets I use: http://www.missouribullet.com/detail...ary=&keywords=

[missionary5155]

Greetings
If vyou can get a photo we all would happily drool on the keys.
To date the most accurate load I have found in my three 38-40's is with 3F. One Marlin and two 1873's. I think the mold is a 40395 Ideal that drops 40-1 at about 200 grains. I also use Unique for everyday plinking about but the 3F with one cereal box wad and the boolit consistently outshoots every other load I have tried.
The Mold I have lapped out to drop 40-1 fatter as the 1873's are fat throated. The Marlin is a shade less in throat diameter but still shoots better with fat boolits.
I am a 38-40 fan. I prefer the 200 grainers as all my hunting is in thick stuff and 33 yards or so is all I can see to shoot. The 200's penetrate far better than a 175 grainer. But either weight will exit a rib shot if cast firm. For hunting I switch to 50-50 as 40-1 mushrooms fast and rips a huge hole. Would be a good home defense load.
Down here I have never seen another caliber old lever gun besides 44 WCF. I did see one old box of Winchester 38-40 (Green Label) so somethingh must have been available.
Mike in Peru

[andym79]

Well I finally took the old girl out to the range this morning, and for 110 she seems to be doing okay. Here are a couple of photos:

50 Yards


This was 10 shots and I'm sure if I had done my part it may have been a 10 shot hole.

100 Yards



I can't really call this 5 shots a group, but I am hopeful with the right load I can get this rifle shooting 2-2 1/2" groups at 100 yards!

The load is federal large pistol primers, 180 grain RNFP 16 BHN cast bullets and 6 grains of trailboss.

At a 100 yards I think a little more velocity is needed so I will try a 4227 load, 17 grains and work it up!

[Marvin S]

Just from memory 8.0 of unique and 190gr sized at .402 worked so well for me I just stopped there.

[andym79]

try 18 to 20 grains of h4227with the 180if you want to fill the case, blackpowder will do it nicely;

Well i took it out again two days latter with a 17 grain load of H4227 and this is what it did at 100 yards

I am very tempted to just leave it there! what do you think?

[w30wcf]

Andy,
Looks great! Good load, nice shooting.:grin

I don't have a .38-40 but do have a couple of 44-40's. 4227 is my go to powder for longer distance shooting unless I am using black powder which works really well also.

W30wcf

[fouronesix]

You bet! Leave it alone and record all the load data in a log. Very nice!

[smithywess]

Well i took it out again two days latter with a 17 grain load of H4227 and this is what it did at 100 yards

I am very tempted to just leave it there! what do you think?

andym79,


Good shooting. I was waiting for you to do that with your load of 4227 ! It's a great one in the .38-40. Did you slug your barrel and if so what's your groove diameter ? Did you determine the velocity of your load ? My next question..what diameter is your cast bullet in relation to the groove diameter ? If your bullet diameter is greater than groove diameter (rare in these old rifles) then you could leave well alone. If it's smaller you could tighten your group even more by topping your load off with a compressible amount of polyethylene shot buffer as a filler which will act as a flexible gas check preventing any blow-by hot gases. This will raise your pressure so you need to know the velocity of your 17.0 Grain load of H4227 with the 180 grain bullet. In my view keeping the speed under 1400 f.p.s. with the filler is within a good safety margin in a well maintained rifle.

[andym79]

H4227 is a very good powder for cast, you can do good things with a 30-30 too.

No I must admit , I did not slug my barrel! Might be a bit backwards, but if the bore looks good I tend to see how it shoots with a default size; the above group was shot with .401". The mold drops them at .402", so it would be no hardship to see how it shoots with them unsized.

I think I will slug it just to see!

with this load the shots were averaging around 1200 fps!

I must admit though that group was shot with a tang and globe sight combination, being that I am not too good with open sight I always develop loads with a peep sight, before shooting open; try to take myself out of the equation as much as possible.

This load could probably be trialed up to 19 grains before it hit 1400 fps.

[Le Loup Solitaire]

I have been using Lyman mold #401043 (sized .403) which is claimed to be the original bullet for he 38-40 although it is designed for use with BP. I have used it with 17 grains of 4227 and it does very well with/in my 1873 Winchester. When used in my Ruger Buckeye SA revolver it also shoots well/accurately, but kicks pretty hard and muzzle blast is loud. LLS

[andym79]

I have been using Lyman mold #401043 (sized .403) which is claimed to be the original bullet for he 38-40 although it is designed for use with BP. I have used it with 17 grains of 4227 and it does very well with/in my 1873 Winchester. When used in my Ruger Buckeye SA revolver it also shoots well/accurately, but kicks pretty hard and muzzle blast is loud. LLS

Whilst I am extremely happy with the accuracy of the load and the fact that the case is well over 50 % full.

I have noticed that rather a load of powder is left unburnt. whilst this isn't really a problem in the barrel, I do not lie the fact some powder is getting in the action! I got a friend to runthe calculation on quickload and it returned only a 74% burn!

Should I just accept it and clean the rifle up after each use? I am reluctant to abandon a very accurate load just because of this!

Has anyone tried one of these loads?

Red Dot 5.5-6.5
Green dot 6-7
Unique 7-9

[fouronesix]

Old sayings when I was growing up. "Never look a gift horse in the mouth" and "Why try to fix something that ain't broke"

What you're noticing with the partially burned kernels of smokeless is perfectly normal for many of the powders used to simulate BP velocities and pressures. There are many different powders that will burn clean but remember they are usually the faster pistol powders that operate with very sharp pressure curves and are therefore much less forgiving.

Many old original Win 92s and 86s have accumulated debris of all manner down in the wells of their blind receivers. I wouldn't pay too much attention to the ghost kernels of smokeless as long as you are getting good accuracy at reasonable velocities and pressures.

Every year or two you can take the stocks off the 92 and use some carburetor cleaner and flush out the junk that gets trapped down in the receiver. I buy the cheapest spray can I can find... and use the straw to shoot the solvent into the receiver while holding it upside down. After flushing-- re-oil, put the stocks back on and you're good to go for another couple of years or longer.

Another thing that helps keep junk out of the receiver is to use a cleaning cradle. Open the action, turn the rifle upside down, use a muzzle guard on the cleaning rod and clean from the muzzle. That way all the fouled patches and debris will fall OUT of the action, not into it.