My test of the 6.5 Cruise Missile

[madsenshooter]

Everything looks better than what I have thus far been able to do with Swede's 155gr bullet out of my Arisakas. Not faulting Swede's bullet, I just haven't done things right yet. Maybe Larry can do something with it to inspire me. Add about 1/4" to the tails of the bullet holes Jeff has pictured, and increase group size to about the size of the target black, that'd be my results so far, but I'm still working on it.

[swheeler]

ms you don't give velocity but I believe your Arisaka probably has a slower twist yet, 1:9?? if that 155 boolit is 1.150" long you will need about 1800 fps to get fully stabilized.

[madsenshooter]

Guesstimated velocity of around 2000fps. The bullet I'm talking about wasn't a group buy, it's 1.21" long. My dismal results could have been from not turning the necks on the cases I made from 30-06 (6.5x257). When I chambered the rounds the final closing of the bolt was hard, the neck was sizing down the bullet and I had no room for sizing, .270 groove diameter, .271 bands. Larry has the mold and will be working with it sometime. In the meantime I have a few more loaded in cases that I reduced the neck thickness of.

[Geppetto]

Larry,

I had to say that is a bang up job on the write-up. I think everyone should strive to perform methodical testing with clear, thorough documentation and your write up is exemplar.

Just wanted to say thanks for the excellent post . I hope to see more follow-up by others with this mold.

Greg

[swheeler]

Well you sent it to the right guy to test. If you do have a 9 twist that will take about 1850 fps to be fully stabilized, that would be where I started looking. I'm sure Larry will put it through the paces and share.

[Dutchman]

....and size it 4 times........ you damage the boolit beyond redemption with the results shown above.

This particular aspect of bullet concentricity between the body and nose would be easy enough to check using a precision Vee block and 1/2 thou dial indicator on a granite surface plate. If Larry wants to send me 2 samples of his CM I'll check them. I would tend to agree that the potential for creating eccentric diameters is pretty high so let's check a couple and eliminate this as a possible source of inaccuracy.

Dutch

[swheeler]

All original, non matching numbers on bolt but original, they tip just like yours Dutchman. My Carcano has been sporterised, barrel shortened 2' to 25 and stock bubbaed up but all other is org, they tip, I still think it is just a design flaw in that bullet, the cruise missle that is.

[Dutchman]

I still think it is just a design flaw in that bullet, the cruise missle that is.

Larry's test just reinforces my thoughts that the CM is of dubious value in the 6.5x55 anything above 1500 fps.
I'll shoot up what I have both from the original mold and the Midsouth mold and that'll be it for me with this bullet. Done with it.

Dutch

[swheeler]

Larry's test just reinforces my thoughts that the CM is of dubious value in the 6.5x55 anything above 1500 fps.
I'll shoot up what I have both from the original mold and the Midsouth mold and that'll be it for me with this bullet. Done with it.
Dutch

That's exactly what I was saying in 04 or 05 I think Kelly just ****e the bed on this design, sure like that 8mm max though. Somebody used to say there ain't no flies on the 6.5's, I think I here a little buzzzing on this bullet design. FWIW I put a 24x scope on the 91/41 Carcano and tested with Hornady(100 of them)160 gr RN Carcano bullets they were selling, various loads with powders in the 4350-4831 class, no tipping and moa or a little more, Im sure the Swede would do just as good if so equipped and correct jacketed bullets, SO I don't buy any of this "parts gun" hoopula. YMMV

[ktw]

Larry's test just reinforces my thoughts that the CM is of dubious value in the 6.5x55 anything above 1500 fps.
I'll shoot up what I have both from the original mold and the Midsouth mold and that'll be it for me with this bullet. Done with it.

If one of you has the oversized mold in good condition that you won't be needing anymore, I'd like to try it. The bullet may be a little heavy, but those dimensions look good to me for paper patching in the 270 Winchester.

-ktw

[JeffinNZ]

The original Lee GB 6.5mm Cruise Missile mold cast boolits that didn't need to be sized (I sure didn't size mine) in an original Swedish produced rifle. This thread shows what happens when you use a non original built parts rifle by somebody other than the Swedes with and an out of spec mold and size it 4 times........ you damage the boolit beyond redemption with the results shown above.

But I am only sizing 0.001-0.0015 at most. That will not kill a boolit.

[Nrut]

The CM is an overly long for cal. bore rider used in a fast twist rifle..
What could possibly go wrong?

Cut the nose off at the top of the top band and replace it with a short RN or RFN, taper the top band to fit the lead and you might have something..

Like a 6.5 Kurtz with wide bands..

I have never made a throat slug on a 96/38 so there may be more to it than that..

[Larry Gibson]

This particular aspect of bullet concentricity between the body and nose would be easy enough to check using a precision Vee block and 1/2 thou dial indicator on a granite surface plate. If Larry wants to send me 2 samples of his CM I'll check them. I would tend to agree that the potential for creating eccentric diameters is pretty high so let's check a couple and eliminate this as a possible source of inaccuracy.

Dutch

Dutch

I appreciate the offer but I have 2 concentricity testers; the loaded rounds are within .000 - .004 concentric. Most of the loaded round had .001 - .0025 run out. 45 2.1s post was pretty much what we have come to expect; long on criticism, short on offering anything constructive. Since he obviously has the superior mould and ability (both by his own admission) it would have been productive and much more positive had he ran a similar test and posted his results just as I did, eh? However that's not his style. He also likes to criticize everyone else's equipment. Seems only he and "a lot of people around where I live" have the equipment that does what he claims.

Seems hard to comprehend how a stock 6.5 Swede M38 barreled action pillar bedded in a composite stock that shoots sub moa with jacketed bullets and moa with other cast bullet loads isn’t as accurate with 45 2.1's designed CM cast bullet as it would be in a stock Swede milsurp M38 or M96. By his statement seems he would have us believe only the Swedes can build accurate rifles and only in military stocks………..that will shoot his cast bullet accurately..........The test rifle was a Swede made M96 action with a Swede made barrel installed by the Swedes. He might want to pay close attention to the bullet by itself and the loaded bullet in the photograph (I'll post it here again).......do they look "damaged beyond redemption"? I don't think so.......just another 45 2.1 grumble.........

Larry Gibson

Attachment 92467

[Larry Gibson]

If one of you has the oversized mold in good condition that you won't be needing anymore, I'd like to try it. The bullet may be a little heavy, but those dimensions look good to me for paper patching in the 270 Winchester.

-ktw

I've not had the mould for a year and a half or so(?) as I returned to the owner. I have about 75 of the CMs left and like Dutch, that will be it for me. I've 3 other much better designed cast bullet moulds that shoot much better. No sense throwing good money after bad........except it may do just fine PP'd in a 270! I'd sure send it to you if I had it.

Larry Gibson

[NYBushBro]

I bought 500 of the CM's from Gardner's Cache a while ago, when he was still offering them (cast from one of the original molds, IIRC).

I also picked up some RL-22 a while ago (recommended in my Speer manual for 6.5 loads for military rifles/carbines), so when the weather breaks, I may try a similar test (although I'm not holding my breath for sub-MOA results.)

If these don't work, I did have the foresight to also get some Hornady 160 gr. J-bullets... so all is not lost.

[MUSTANG]

Larry Gibson:

I understand the reality of a cast boolit having a center of mass that can be viewed on an X axis (length of Boolit base to nose) that rarely resides at the center of the length. A pure cylinder would have the center of mass located closest to the center on the X axis, with impurities or voids causing a micro shift right or left on each boolit. On the Y & Y Axis (left to right, up or down on the diameter) the center of mass would be at the radius center (discounting impact of impurities, voids, or non concentric sizing, or lube grooves and lube applications).

1. Why is there such a difference in the Cast Boolit performance and Jacketed in a 6.5 x 55. Does a 10 grain difference between the long 160 grain round nose and the 170 Grain Cruise Missile account for it (complicated by an even longer boolit due to grease grooves)?

2. Are the problems for wide groups all attributable to "Swaging Actions upon Firing" the cast boolit round?

3. Is the problem "Irrecoverable" because of the potential wide range of center of mass shifts that can occur with impurities or voids in a cast boolit, compared to a theoretical lesser impact for a swaged core in a jacketed bullet? If so, would we not see some shooters with better quality control in boolits production getting better performance than those with lesser quality control, or is the design of the CM so bad that the difference is undetectable?

4. If the cast boolit inaccuracy is caused by rotating on two points: the center of mass, and the rotation around the center line of the radius; do we see the same thing with the 160 grain round nose jacketed in the 6.5 x55, but it is less noticeable because it is not as long as the Cruise Missile? Or, is it attributable to some other set of conditions?

[swheeler]

mustang those 2 bullets are the same length for all practical purposes, the Hornady with nice round exposed lead tip may actually be a couple thousanths longer

[Dutchman]

1. Why is there such a difference in the Cast Boolit performance and Jacketed in a 6.5 x 55. Does a 10 grain difference between the long 160 grain round nose and the 170 Grain Cruise Missile account for it (complicated by an even longer boolit due to grease grooves)?

The m/94 bullet is barely shorter than the Cruise Missile. The difference is in the diameter of the nose section. The CM needs the same tapered nose of the m/94 bullet and I think we'd be seeing much different results.

L to R:
266469
266673
m/41 139 gr
m/94 156 gr
Lee Cruise Missile.

[Dutchman]

If one of you has the oversized mold in good condition that you won't be needing anymore, I'd like to try it. The bullet may be a little heavy, but those dimensions look good to me for paper patching in the 270 Winchester.

-ktw

Send me a PM with name & address. You can have mine.

With a 50:50 WW/Linotype alloy:
nose diameter .266"
4 bands top to bottom:
1- .270"
2- .2725"
3- .272"
4- .2705"
169.5 grains

Dutch

[Dutchman]

I appreciate the offer but I have 2 concentricity testers; the loaded rounds are within .000 - .004 concentric.

I was speaking only of bullet concentricity between the nose portion and the body, not the cartridge. The comment spoke of sizing the nose portion of the bullet and introducing eccentricity.

Actually I think you've put enough time into this.

Dutch