Boat tails on our 22 cals from 22lr jackets?

[Lizard333]

So what would you say if I shot some 90 grain 224 bullets at 2700 FPS out of my 223 with a 1:6.5 twist. By my calculations that would be just short of 300K rpm.

Supe47 has had problems with improperly made bullets. As I did when I first started out. In my opinion most people mess up the core seating step. Your jacket could be perfect, but if the core isn't stable, you'll have a grenade out the end of the barrel.

I have found that with the firearms I have access to, proper bullet construction is by far the single most important function.

[Prospector Howard]

I'd say good luck making 90 gr bullets with .22 cases for jackets and still have any ojive on the brass part of the bullet. I don't get your point with that question.

[Lizard333]

I used 22 mag brass with a 12S ogive. I have a set of RCE dies.

[Prospector Howard]

I thought the conversation was about .22 caliber bullets made from .22 long rifle cases coming apart, not bullets made from .22 mag cases. I make .243 bullets from .22 mag cases and they sure seem beafier to me, so that might not be a good comparison.

[sargenv]

The only reason I want boat tailed .224's is not so much for extended range shoting, it's for ease of reloading on a progressive press... I find with boat tailed bullets, I don't need chamfer.. but then I'm only looking for minute of 10" plate to 300 yards or so...

[customcutter]

Well, flat based versus boat tailed has been studied, and within a few hundred yards, it has been found that a flat base is more accurate with button rifling and a boat tail is better with cut rifling. YMMV

Interesting, just wondering if the depth of the rifling allows gases to pass by the bullet when it is leaving the muzzle and disrupt the bullet. Just wondering any studies past 200-300 yds and what the results were? Aren't cut rifled barrels usually more accurate than button rifled?

Sorry about stealing the thread, back to your normal programming.

[Nickle]

Cut versus button rifling is a tricky subject.

Kreiger and Bartlein barrels are cut rifling.

Hart barrels are button rifling.

I know of benchrest records that were set with both types.

[Nickle]

Oh, I will say that over 500 yards, the bullets ballistic performance becomes a bigger issue, accuracy wise.

Then boat tails will be the better way to go, as they are better ballistically.

It all depends on what you're shooting, and at what distance.

In the cases of what we're talking about here, I would actually go with what shoots better (doesn't always follow the "rules"), and is easier to load.

There's a lot of trade offs, and it isn't an exact science.

[customcutter]

Yes, I know when you start pushing 500+ that boat tails make a huge difference because of the BC. I'm building a 6.5 Grendel AR, and the barrel should be here next week. It will be a hunting rifle not a paper puncher so I went with a Satern button rifled barrel for half the cost of the cut rifled barrels. It should be sub MOA with the rest of the parts I've gathered.

[customcutter]

Anyone have a pic of the top of their base punch used for forming boat tails? Any thoughts on the RC heat treat on the punch?

[Nickle]

Well, do keep everything in perspective that we're referring to well under 1 MOA use here.

It shouldn't make any significant difference at or over .5 MOA, especially within that 500 yard distance.

I'll try to get a couple of pics of my punches. No idea what the hardness is, but I'd generally assume they are about the same hardness as base punches. Remember, I use a Corbin S press and dies for mine.

[Wolftracker]

I hadn't yet tried making rebated boat tails from rimfire jackets, though I intended to eventually. Now I have and they turned out very well! I'll be shooting them soon in a 1-9" AR. For some reason I thought the jacket wouldn't hold up to the Rebate process. Wrong! Perhaps my information was based on old information? Anyway, they look good and I'd bet they shoot good too! Thanks for the inspiration BT!

[BT Sniper]

My other question is who here has actually destroyed jackets cranking them out too fast or too much twist? I have fired some of my 22LR bullets out 4100 FPS out of a 22-250. Most of the problems that the new bullet makers have is improper construction of the bullet. I blew up some bullets early on, but after getting my bullet production down, I have had ZERO issues. Could you be looking for fix that doesn't exist?

After the last couple days at the range I am beginning to believe exactly what Lizard333 has to say. My latest batch of bullets all made the target today and FPS out of the 9 twist was 3500 at the max load. I haven't really ever had that much trouble but occasionally I could blow a bullet up at max load and 3500 fps in my 9 twist. I took my time with these bullets I made, I did everything I could to keep the jackets and cores as clean as possible, I culled any bullets that looked like they may have had any sort of flaw in formation, the only flaw was an occasional slight fold in the tip, these where Federal (10.5 grain) jackets and final bullet weight was 52.8 grains. It had traditional flat base.

At 26 grains of H-335 I shot a 5 shot group of .66" today at 100 yrds and I'm confident I could do it again

Thanks Lizzard. with groups like that I probably won't worry to much about boat tails but......I'm sure I'll play with them again.

I am convinced now more then ever that proper bullet formation is one of the main reasons for keeping these bullets together.

Good shooting and swage on!

Brian

[customcutter]

Nickle,

I don't expect my swaged bullets to shoot sub MOA yet. I'm expecting that with factory rounds or reloads (I'm hoping the gun is sub MOA). I am thinking of swaging 6.5's for hard times and fun, once I finish my .224's I'll start on the 6.5 dies.

I'm curious about the shape of the punches because I had thought of making the top ejection punch for the .224's as a point forming tip instead of the normal "hollow points". I was thinking the punch would expand under pressure or break. Does the boat tail punch insert up into the point forming die? Or does it "adjust" so that it just touches the base of the point forming die?

Edit,

On second thought I don't think the die could be adjusted to keep the bottom punch out of the die body. There wouldn't be any way to form the point with out "nail heading" the base of the bullet.

[RwBeV]

I also have a theory or opinion and every one knows opinion's are like, well you know what. I have been making 17 caliber bullets out of 22LR jackets, and I noticed that some brands shot better than others, Eley was the worst in my guns, after looking over the spent cases I noticed that who ever shot most of these must have had a sharp firing pin. Some of them even make a hole in the jacket after I draw them down, none of the other brands did this. So I thought if I could make a small boat tail on them it might iron the firing pin mark out just a bit and help accuracy. So far I have not had any problem with any of my 22LR bullets coming apart even with speeds over 4K in the 17 and 3700 in my 22's even with a 9 twist barrel. But the accuracy sucks with the 17's. So I made up a new base punch that puts a small boat tail on my 17's, I made some 27.5gr 17's I just haven't had time or the weather to test them yet.

My press and dies are an old SAS setup so Im limited to what I can make myself, I was hoping to be able to make 20cal bullets by now but I got screwed buy the guy that was supposed to make me a press and dies so Im looking for a new and reputable die maker now. So for now Im just trying to get these darn 17's to shoot at least decent groups.

Bob

Bob

[Nickle]

CC, totally understand.

So you know, I'm not a blowhard on the subject, I actually got back into competition, and the rifles I use are 222 Rem, 22 PPC, 219 Donaldson Wasp, 6x47 (old style, 222 Rem Mag case), 6x250, 30 IHMSA and 308 Win. Others will get built and/or rebuilt.

So, I have the means for the fine testing. Now Cheryl's 243 Varmint rifle is factory, as are my 6.5's and the rest of my 30 cal rifles. Got a bunch more too. So, there's normal rifles here, even AR's, AK's and an SKS (M14 clone and M1 too).

As to the dies and punches, I'll work some pictures up. Make that detailed pictures of the parts and the process, I think you'll want them both.

I may not be new to shooting, not even close, but I am new to bullet swaging.

[customcutter]

Thanks, I'm in no hurry. Like I said I've still got to finish my .224 dies before starting on the 6.5's. Just wondering if the base punch tapers to a sharp edge (which I'm thinking would expand under pressure and stick in the die), or if it has a shoulder that increases the strength of the top of the punch.

As far as swaging all I've done is derim a few .22's for proof of concept. Still working on the other dies.

[Nickle]

So far, all I've made were a few test runs of 22, both from 22 LR jackets, and with J4's. I have swaged a little of the larger stuff, including bumping some 429 factory jacketed up to 448 for my 11mm Mauser. Went with 452 diameter lead though, going to use up some that were bought, then going to swage my own (lead, no jackets) and Hi-Tek them.

[Prospector Howard]

My Lyman reloading handbook shows a max load on 52 gr jacketed HPBT of 27.2 gr with H335 for 3361 fps for .223. I'm surprised you could get 3500 fps with 26 gr.---Hmmm. You would think 26 gr would be about 3200 fps. Unless that is in a 1 to 9 twist 22-250 with a different load? Also my point earlier was that the heavier 10.5 grain Federal jackets are holding up way better over 3000 fps in my 1 to 9 twist rifle than the lighter and thinner 9.5 gr Remington jackets that did come apart over 3000 fps. I still think the Remington cases have more zinc in them also (they are lighter in color) which probably makes them a little more brittle.

After the last couple days at the range I am beginning to believe exactly what Lizard333 has to say. My latest batch of bullets all made the target today and FPS out of the 9 twist was 3500 at the max load. I haven't really ever had that much trouble but occasionally I could blow a bullet up at max load and 3500 fps in my 9 twist. I took my time with these bullets I made, I did everything I could to keep the jackets and cores as clean as possible, I culled any bullets that looked like they may have had any sort of flaw in formation, the only flaw was an occasional slight fold in the tip, these where Federal (10.5 grain) jackets and final bullet weight was 52.8 grains. It had traditional flat base.

At 26 grains of H-335 I shot a 5 shot group of .66" today at 100 yrds and I'm confident I could do it again

Thanks Lizzard. with groups like that I probably won't worry to much about boat tails but......I'm sure I'll play with them again.

I am convinced now more then ever that proper bullet formation is one of the main reasons for keeping these bullets together.

Good shooting and swage on!

Brian

[supe47]

I ran a test a while back, 55 gr Corbin jacketed bullets VS 55 gr 22LR jacketed bullets, both made from the same dies. Load, primer, cases, ect... were all the same. I tried to make them as identical as possible. Fps out the muzzle were about 150 fps faster with the 22LR jacketed bullets. If 22LR cases are made from cartridge brass (70% copper, 30%zinc) VS the Corbins guilding metal jackets (95% copper, 5% zinc) then perhaps the added zinc would explain the higher fps. Zinc is supposed to be "slicker" than copper. Barrel length might also explain some of the higher fps compared to the charts. Just a thought.