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Thread: Bore or Groove?

  1. #1
    Boolit Bub
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    Bore or Groove?

    First off let me say thanks to all those who have been helping me get into the paper patching. many have sent pms and have steared me into some great direction and for that im truly thankful.Calaloo was extra helpful and it speaks volumes of the brotherhood and fellowship we have here on this site. I started rolling some last week and im hooked already! the question i have is: i have read and sampled several diff folks' boolits and some patch to groove and some to bore. is there one more accepted "right" way than the other? OR, is it just a preference of your gun? thanks for the additional help!

  2. #2
    Boolit Grand Master

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    Randolph S. Wrights Book Loading and shooting the Paper patched bullet A Beginners Guide gets into this some It is very good help starting out. I patch to bore dia normally , although I have access to a brooks mold that wraps to groove dia. I have done both ways. Bore dia allows a little more powder in the case than groove dia does. Alot also depends on the throat of the rifle. Alot patch to throat dia with the longer throats. Experminent with diffrent bullets and patch paper see what works for you.

  3. #3
    Boolit Grand Master Don McDowell's Avatar
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    It's mostly a choice of what you and your rifle want to do. You'll just have to judge for yourself, and of course use all the targets these helpful folks of the brotherhood sent you off line with them iddybiddy groups and all.
    Long range rules, the rest drool.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by seekersoftheredmist View Post
    is there one more accepted "right" way than the other? OR, is it just a preference of your gun?
    Actually, it does depend on your gun.
    The Old Dead Guys shot bullets patched to bore diameter, but that depended on the fact that their guns would not chamber a groove-size bullet. So, there was no choice.
    If you have a rifle chambered with modern dimensions, the groove diameter bullet is the 'natural' choice because everything fits without any special accomodations.

    CM
    Last edited by montana_charlie; 01-21-2014 at 01:37 PM.
    Retired...TWICE. Now just raisin' cows and livin' on borrowed time.

  5. #5
    Boolit Grand Master Don McDowell's Avatar
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    I'm not so sure that bit about those original rifles not taking groove diameter bullets is quite right. Specifically if you look at rifles chambered for the US Springfield 45 caliber. The government spec on that bullet was a .458 diameter, and even Sharps claims their rifles will accept that ammunition....
    Long range rules, the rest drool.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Don McDowell View Post
    I'm not so sure that bit about those original rifles not taking groove diameter bullets is quite right.
    Were any of those Trapdoors being loaded with paper patched bullets?

    As for the Sharps chambers, check with Orville Loomer.
    Doesn't Shiloh now offer a 'paper patch chamber' with a neck diameter of .472"?

    CM
    Retired...TWICE. Now just raisin' cows and livin' on borrowed time.

  7. #7
    Boolit Grand Master Don McDowell's Avatar
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    What difference would the paper patch bullet in the trapdoor make? .458 is .458 doesn't matter if it's all lead or part lead covered by paper... Yes the Sharps 45-70 chambers were cut to accept US ammo, they were trying very hard for the War Dept contracts, and some state militia's armored themselves with the Borchardt...
    Lots of stuff coming to light that was supposed to be gospel fact , turns out we've been fed a line of bs...
    Long range rules, the rest drool.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Don McDowell View Post
    What difference would the paper patch bullet in the trapdoor make?
    It would make a difference in what I tell people, if the military was using paper patched ammunition in their Trapdoors rifles.
    I doubt that was the case, but ...

    Since this IS about paper patching, that trapdoor cowpie was just a distraction thrown in to cloud the water ... no?

    CM
    Retired...TWICE. Now just raisin' cows and livin' on borrowed time.

  9. #9
    Boolit Grand Master Don McDowell's Avatar
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    No it was thrown in to help maybe shed some light on the way things really were, instead of the same old regurgitated bogus bs, some are prone to keep spreading.
    The grease groove diameter of the trapdoor bullet was specified at .458, Sharps, Remington, Winchester and Ballard rifles all were capable of chambering that round. So much for the bullspit about the original rifles not able to chamber a groove diameter bullet, NO?
    Long range rules, the rest drool.

  10. #10
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    We're done screwing around, seekersoftheredmist.

    If you have further questions, lay 'em out.

    CM
    Retired...TWICE. Now just raisin' cows and livin' on borrowed time.

  11. #11
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    Frustrating isn't it! Kinda like talking to the wall.

    RRR
    "I Make the part.............................that makes the parts"

    Looking for Bullet Mould Handles, Heavy Duty Replacement Sprue Plates, Adjustable Paper Patch Bullet Moulds? Check here:http://www.kal.castpics.net/

    My Feedback!

    http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...Red-River-Rick

  12. #12
    Boolit Master Lead pot's Avatar
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    I shoot the PP 4 ways Below bore, bore, between bore and groove and groove, even above groove at times in modern chambers and the old lead bullet chambers of the late 1800rds and they will reach the target whatever it might be in Trapdoors or the falling blocks. Shoot your rifle and see what works best. There is no just one way.

  13. #13
    Boolit Bub
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    ok i slugged my bore in the 38-55 Taylors Highwall and got . 373 bore and 379 groove. Is this normal and what are yall paper patching up to? thanks for the help fellers!

  14. #14
    Boolit Grand Master Nobade's Avatar
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    Well, in my H&R 38-55 I use a .366" slick patched to .373" since I have the same bore size as you do. (.381" groove) It shoots really well, at least as far as it can with me pulling the trigger. It holds 51gr. of powder, a LDPE wad and a .187" grease cookie with a card wad on top. Boolit is in the case about .100". Oh, using Accurate Mold's 290gr. design.

    -Nobade

  15. #15
    Boolit Grand Master Don McDowell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seekersoftheredmist View Post
    ok i slugged my bore in the 38-55 Taylors Highwall and got . 373 bore and 379 groove. Is this normal and what are yall paper patching up to? thanks for the help fellers!
    You might want to do a chamber cast. The Taylors 38-55 I had the chamber was large enough to shoot a .375 diameter bullet wrapped in 9# paper. At least doing it that way the leading problems quit. It also used the long chamber so current Winchester brass is quite a bit short.
    Long range rules, the rest drool.

  16. #16
    Boolit Grand Master Don McDowell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red River Rick View Post
    Frustrating isn't it! Kinda like talking to the wall.

    RRR
    Yes it is, some folks just continue to spue stuff that just doesn't line up with with what really was/is, and won't even lift a finger to do the simple basic research to find the answer.
    Long range rules, the rest drool.

  17. #17
    Boolit Grand Master Nobade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Don McDowell View Post
    You might want to do a chamber cast. The Taylors 38-55 I had the chamber was large enough to shoot a .375 diameter bullet wrapped in 9# paper. At least doing it that way the leading problems quit. It also used the long chamber so current Winchester brass is quite a bit short.
    Good point - if the chamber is big enough to admit a larger boolit, it'll likely shoot better with one. The little H&R only takes a .374" boolit in a fired case.

    -Nobade

  18. #18
    Boolit Grand Master Don McDowell's Avatar
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    Nobade, I've read a lot about the troubles folks have been having with those 38-55's , and I'm wondering if those things weren't chambered with a Ballard chamber, intended for patched bullet shooting only? But nobody ever mentions the lead angle on those chambers just that they are to tight for regular bullets..
    After reading a number of different sources of the time period, it's really starting to look like the Creedmoor and midrange guns quite possibly were chambered differently than the "sporting" rifles, and until Winchester coopted the 38-55 for the model 94, that cartridge was the darling of the midrange boys.
    Long range rules, the rest drool.

  19. #19
    Boolit Buddy Huvius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobade View Post
    Good point - if the chamber is big enough to admit a larger boolit, it'll likely shoot better with one. The little H&R only takes a .374" boolit in a fired case.

    -Nobade
    That is pretty much where I try to get to with my patched boolit, that is, to get to the patched diameter which fits the fired case and the chamber the best.
    FWIW, I shoot a 461Gibbs which has a .461" bore and the chamber will not allow for a bullet any larger than .461". I guess this is what would be considered "tight chambered" today.
    It is Metford rifled and I never slugged it simply because the groove diameter is moot since I cannot chamber a round with that large a boolit anyway.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huvius View Post
    That is pretty much where I try to get to with my patched boolit, that is, to get to the patched diameter which fits the fired case and the chamber the best.
    FWIW, I shoot a 461Gibbs which has a .461" bore and the chamber will not allow for a bullet any larger than .461". I guess this is what would be considered "tight chambered" today.
    It is Metford rifled and I never slugged it simply because the groove diameter is moot since I cannot chamber a round with that large a boolit anyway.
    What you are doing should be just right for that rifle ... if your bullet alloy is soft enough to let the bullet bump up into the grooves.

    With the right paper, I bet my .454" bullet would work well in your gun ...

    CM
    Retired...TWICE. Now just raisin' cows and livin' on borrowed time.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
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HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
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GC Gas Check