How consistent are you REALY???

[MBTcustom]

Goodsteel, I have been off the site for a few days and boy have you stirred it up! Good data. I have a question about post #1. You said....

"Every time, with startling consistency, the last cavity filled was producing the most consistent boolits. In other words, the cup that weighed the most, was always directly related to the cavity that was last filled."

Would it be possible that the difference you are seeing is due to mold expansion? My thinking is the mold is heating up as the alloy is filling the adjacent cavities.....The longer the boolit, the more effect this would have. Fixture expansion plays a big role in my line of work. We have to calculate its effect depending on what temp we braze at. A few tenths could make a difference.

Actually, What material is the mold made from? I could calculate the expansion and tell you how the volume would change...

The mold is brass. It didn't matter which cavity was filled last, the last two were the most consistent.
However, I found that if I primed the spout before sweeping the mold under the silver stream, there was virtually no difference in consistency between the cavities.
I surmise that you are partially right, that the mold is responding to the heat, but I think that brass is such a good conductor that it is actually a direct result of the temperature of the alloy that is being thrown. It seems that anything that causes the alloy to cool slightly (like throwing the ladle full of priming shots back in the pot) would cause this instant variation.
That's just a theory though, and I would be very interested in your findings if you were so inclined to check on that for me.

More testing will be done. I had to put the pot away and get back to working on guns, but before I did, I took an old bustedazz Lyman 429421 mold and cast up about 50 boolits with it and laid out a curve. It was pretty sad. I was priming the spout like before and everything, but waiting 5 seconds between fills. This mold is pretty used and abused though. Just shows to go ya that every mold is a law unto itself, and requires different techniques to produce good results. That's where the bell curve comes in and tells you what works for each mold, and what doesn't.

[MBTcustom]

A large pot of at least 40lbs, using a tweaked rowell ladle, a high speed fan, and having a real metranome or a good internal one will get you to the goal the fastest.


My My off the net for a couple of days due to an Ice riddled landscape with no electricity and somehow I managed to cause panties to wad up without trying.....what is up round here lately? everyone seems so tense...Hey Mods.....can we get a round of Paxil for the masses? OMG


My original post in this thread was not meant to bunch anyones underwear up and if the OP had done exactly what I said to do and in the order said he would have found THE BIG Solution by now. Consistency is vital in all steps of this "hobby", how could anyone think differently? Sorting boolits is no where near as good as making a great batch in the first place.....several members here excel at this, I have seen it and learned. What Tim is doing is treating the symptoms and not treating the disease is all I was TRYING VERY POORLY to say I guess.


Merry Christmas and please try to relax YALL

I'm actually going to do exactly what you suggest! I have a 40lb pot (not really ideal so I'm going to make a better one) and I'm going to order a Rowel #1 ladle, and bust out the files. Really can't afford to go see Bob, (although I would love to do just that and see about four other booliteers on the way) and I still like the part about the adult beverage the best. LOL!

Seriously though, I wasn't trying to treat anything. I was merely trying to find a way to observe my proficiency (or lack thereof as the case turned out to be), test the mold for consistency between cavities, and test my progress in real time. I just can't put a number on the "look" of my boolits, and it's way too easy for me to fool myself that way (I've got 18 years and counting of believing my own BS).
The scale is the only way I know to get a shaky idea of how well I'm doing without burning a couple kegs of powder, ya know?

[357maximum]

Suggestion......Get both the #1 and the #2 while you are making the order......large boolit and gang moulds need more lead. Babore would be another great one to "witness" he casts the most consistent boolits of anyone I know, but he got there using his pre clandestined anal nature and some of Bob's ideas methinks.

I was being dead serious with comment # 2 aND #3 IT WILL TEACH YOU ALOT....the adult beverage thing just helps one digest their findings. Captain Morgan and Jose Quervo expedite the "thinking" process immensely.

[geargnasher]

Oh. I thought you just didn't believe Bob or me when you talked to us on the phone about your casting problems two weekends ago.

Now, tell me, after all of that, and Mike also bringing the full broadside of the Voice of Reason to bear on you, why on earth are you going to buy a #1 Rowel? I thought you were paying attention to what your bell-curves were telling you.

Your "Tough Love" Amigo,

Gear

[geargnasher]

Suggestion......Get both the #1 and the #2 while you are making the order......large boolit and gang moulds need more lead. Babore would be another great one to "witness" he casts the most consistent boolits of anyone I know, but he got there using his pre clandestined anal nature and some of Bob's ideas methinks.

I was being dead serious with comment # 2 aND #3 IT WILL TEACH YOU ALOT....the adult beverage thing just helps one digest their findings. Captain Morgan and Jose Quervo expedite the "thinking" process immensely.

Dang, I take a potty break and you beat me too it! Tim is like me, you have to tell him three times how to do something and then let him try every other conceivable way first before he finally relents and figures it out.

Gear

[TXGunNut]

Don't get so touchy because I wasn't giving you grief but do you really think you're the first one to weigh segregate bullets? Do you think you're the only one that cares about accuracy? I was fitting barrels, building cast bullet BR rifles, cutting moulds, shooting matches, and searching for accuracy with cast bullet BR rifles long before I ever saw your name on a website. Do as 357maximum says and see if you can tell any difference on paper because that's what matters unless I got my signals mixed up. Maybe I've been missing the point of guns and shooting all along and it's really not about how well a gun performs at the range it's really about convincing yourself and others that you do everything "Perfectly" and then talking about it on an internet forum.

At some point it indeed becomes a mind game, boolits with a very narrow ES in weight give us the confidence to believe that our loads will be perfect as well. I've studied the bell curve and use it to cull the extremes but have learned it's not everything, not even close. Take a box of your favorite premium j-words off the shelf do the same bell-curve exercise, you'll find that these j-words, capable of sub-MOA groups, vary much more than your selected band of the bell curve.
357Maximum and Pat I. have indeed uttered discouraging words but there is wisdom in them. Your culls are more consistent than premium j-words and may surprise you on paper even if they disappoint you at weigh-in time.
I once read about a budding BPCR shooter whose mentor made him shoot boolits he would have preferred to discard. IIRC they didn't affect his scores.
I applaud your results and methodology but I think your main benefit is increased confidence...but that's no small thing as we all know.

[geargnasher]

Something else that amuses me is the obsession over weighing powder charges to the tenth of a grain. Ask a professional, aggregate-score shooter what his tweak steps are to chase the node throughout the day. The answer may be surprising to many. Ignition consistency promoted by uniform-depth primer pockets, uniform case neck tension, and uniform headspace preload has more effect on POI than a tenth of a grain variance in powder does.

I weight-sort my test loads to eliminate the occasional casting faux pas from coloring data. I get a few of them because, like I posted previously, I use a bottom-pour pot the majority of the time and there are inherent problems to that technique. Couple a bottom-pour with difficult designs like Bob is famous for making, and you get what you got.

Gear

[357maximum]

TX

I have not weight sorted a batch of boolits in over 3 years, I know from weighing alot of boolits that for my purposes it is not needed (NOW) and I also know when I make a bad boolit by looking at the base each and every pour, when I make a pour I do not like (for whatever reason) the whole pour gets dumped into the sprue bin. That being said there was a whole heck of a lot of weighing done that helped me get to that point. Paying attention to those that know more than me was a HUGE part of that process. For me personally CADENCE is the biggest factor in consistent boolits and I know when I am not capable of that and resist the urge to cast at such times. There is "perfection" and there is "not good" most my boolits fall into the ground somewhere in between them lands and it is called "good nough". With consistent methods good enough can be quite accurate.

[357maximum]

Ignition consistency promoted by uniform-depth primer pockets, uniform case neck tension, and uniform headspace preload has more effect on POI than a tenth of a grain variance in powder does.

I use a bottom-pour pot the majority of the time and there are inherent problems to that technique. Couple a bottom-pour with difficult designs like Bob is famous for making, and you get what you got.

Gear

EXACTLY CORRECT, the case neck tension(bullet pull) is most important of the 3 in my opinion.

A good ladle will beat the pants off the fanciest bottom fed pot out there...just my opinion.... don't need no hate mail or nastygrams from the bottomsuckers out there.

[MBTcustom]

FWIW, I knew about ladle casting before I ever started this thread. Bob told me that the first step to accurate shooting begins at the pot. He told me to buy a Rowel ladle, and to use a 40lb pot, (as well as about a 30 minute argument with me that my trusty old RCBS ladle is not actually a bottom pour. Oy-vey....) He told me that when using these tools proficiently, that I would be able to drop boolits of extremely consistent weight and dimension.
I had some business to move out the door before I could act on his recommendations (I'm on a shoestring like a lot of people), but I started wondering how consistent I could get with just my BP pot, as Ian and several others use that tool with satisfactory results (Hey Ian, wanna sell me a ladle cheap? LOL!)
So, how does a feller relearn the casting process and closely monitor his skill, proficiency, and progress until he is satisfied that he's mashing the button that spits out the free gumballs?
Take a trip?
Spend some money?
Drink a tall glass of rot-gut tequila? (seriously Mike, Jose Quervo?!? I said I was cheap, but it's not that bad!)
How would you suggest I do that? All I've got is a scale, a micrometer, my eyeballs, and the little bit of grey matter behind them which causes me to put things in order. I have no jedi training, so using the force is out.

[357maximum]

Doesn't spending money always fix things?


Seriously though a robust turkey fryer unit, a 40lb+ pot made from steel gas pipe, a rowell, a high speed mini fan and some tutilidge from Babore is how I GOT THERE.....you may need other things, I do not know.

As far as Jose is concerned I like it with pickle or olive juice.....yep I am high fallutin. P.S... I use Patrone when making margaritas, would not wanna pollute good contreau or gran marnier with Jose.........and Smirnoff/Popov is good with olive juice too in them LEANER TIMES.

[MBTcustom]

Try Rancho Alegre. It's cheap but it's 100% agave. Thats how I "get there". LOL!
I just ordered a Rowell #1 from Buffalo Arms http://www.buffaloarms.com/Detail.as...60454&CAT=3900
I'm going to hit the scrap yard on monday and try to score a piece of 6" pipe to use as a pot, and maybe some more pure lead.

I dont like this. I wanna go back to casting cheap boolits that make 4" groups. You guys are making me spend money.

I'll post a lineup here once I get the hang of the new system. By golly, I better get a string of boolits that starts 6" wide and stretches down the driveway!

[cbrick]

Suggestion......Get both the #1 and the #2 while you are making the order......large boolit and gang moulds need more lead.

I just ordered a Rowell #1 from Buffalo Arms http://www.buffaloarms.com/Detail.as...60454&CAT=3900
I'm going to hit the scrap yard on monday and try to score a piece of 6" pipe to use as a pot, and maybe some more pure lead.

I heard someone on the phone just a few days ago telling Tim to get both the #1 and #2 Rowell. The person he was talking to told him that #1 was great for small boolits and two cavity molds BUT large boolits and multiple cavities NEED #2 in order to pour enough lead. I guess some people just won't listen. If only one ladle is in the budget #2 makes more sense because it of course can be used for small boolits and one or two cavity molds. #1 on the other hand can only hold so much lead.

And then while I have nothing against Buffalo Arms are they a sponsor here? Roto sells the full line of Rowell ladles and Roto sponsor's this site.

Rick

[45 2.1]

Babore would be another great one to "witness" he casts the most consistent boolits of anyone I know, but he got there using his pre clandestined anal nature and some of Bob's ideas methinks.

You all got the same demonstration along with the instructions at the same time. Looks like he did as suggested instead of the little Lyman dipper, small aluminum pot and cold drafty garage............

[45 2.1]

I just ordered a Rowell #1 from Buffalo Arms. I'm going to hit the scrap yard on monday and try to score a piece of 6" pipe (You would be happier with 8") to use as a pot, and maybe some more pure lead.

Gee, talk to a guy on the phone and look what happens.......................

[45 2.1]

If you think BPCR or ASSRA match shooters aren't using the very best equipment available to them you know very little about BPCR and ASSRA match shooters or matches.

Since you're the one who asked what they were and had an interest in seeing the matches, one would have to believe you didn't know of them (or you're playing games). Either way it appears you haven't been to either, so your knowledge of what is used is decidedly insufficient to determine that. You will be surprised what shows up in peoples hands though.

[MBTcustom]

Well, the truth is I can't afford to buy much of anything until after the new year (there's this dam gunstock duplicator that sucked all my time and talent and profits for the last month) and I move some piled up work out the door.
Secondly, my birthday is on the 29th.......
I say my birthday is on the 29th...

And thirdly, I only own one four cavity mold that I will be using the dipper on, and this is it. The other ones are the lee 6 bangers, and the boolits I am dropping from them need to be minute of copenhagen can at 15 yards as fast as I can pull the trigger. At least, they used to be. I quit shooting like that a while ago. Ah the good ol days when lead and primers were plentiful........(sigh).

As far as rifle molds go, I prefer 2 cavity molds. The reason I was interested in this one is because I'm hoping to feed a semi automatic rifle with it too, and this is the way it came, and the price was right. (thanks Ian!)

[cbrick]

Gee, talk to a guy on the phone and look what happens.......................

Yep, I told him on the phone to get #1 & #2 Rowell and why. He said that he had been talking with you on the phone and you had told him the same thing. So what did he do?

Rick

[MBTcustom]

Yep, I told him on the phone to get #1 & #2 Rowell and why. He said that he had been talking with you on the phone and you had told him the same thing. So what did he do?

Rick

Succumbed to peer pressure.

[Larry Gibson]

Goodsteel

Consistency can be had with the bottom poor pot just as easily as with a ladle. It's simply a matter of correct set up and correct technique and you've found the correct technique for your bottom pour Lee pot by prepping the spout with a squirt of alloy before filling any mould cavity as I suggested you would. I'd also suggest filling each cavity as a separate step one after the other instead of "sweeping" the alloy across the sprue holes. Give each hole a good sprue before moving to the next hole.

No need to spend money you don't have on equipment when what you have will do the job just fine.

BTW; before the proponents of ladle pouring get a wedgie I've have ladles of various styles including Rowell's and ladle pour for certain bullets also. Both methods work equally well and one is not any better for consistency of the cast bullets you are casting than the other.

Merry Christmas

Larry Gibson