How consistent are you REALY???

[bayjoe]

Would water dropping effect the weight of the bullet trial?
Does water dropping contort a long rifle bullet, so the concentricity of the bullet changes?
I also weigh my rifle bullets and use a plus or minus .1 grain. Pistol bullets I personally don't think they need to be that consistent for my purposes.
Goodsteel definitely got me interested in doing so experimenting.

[btroj]

Water dropping has been reported to cause long, thin bullets to warp. That won't affect weight but it sure won't help em shoot to straight either.

I don't see water dropping as having a real effect EXCEPT it can lead to variations in hardness.

Now there is a can of worms, how much variation is there in water dropped bullets based on how long from pour to quench? Tim, are you reading this?

[dtknowles]

Tim

Thanks for the report. I have to admit that my first impulse was, "it does not matter." I came around quickly and thank you for not only doing the testing but documenting it and sharing.

I have done the same weight sampling but without the repeat with process changes and repeat sampling. Clearly, it can only be a benefit to modify your process to produce a more consistent product.

Your casting consistency is certainly better than mine was when I did my testing, sorry I did not document my work to share it. I have not weighed a lot of bullets in years but I do have many unsized bullets that I could weigh but I am not sure they are all from the same casting session although each box is of a uniform alloy I may have cast them over a period of days. I do not have a good digital scale so weight sorting bullets is slow. I might be inclinded to weigh some bullets from my last casting session that is with a new mould.

In defence of those that say all that matters is how they shoot. I have taken to eliminating non-value adding processes in my reloading. I do not clean primer pockets, I do not uniform primer pockets or ream flash holes except for bench rest ammo. I only weigh powder charges for certain rounds or loads.

I do sort brass by headstamp and number of times loaded. I keep case lengths pretty uniform. I neck turn my bench rest brass.

Right now my ammo is mostly better than I can shoot. I need a lot more time at the range as I find that if I do not shoot enough my skills suffer. Time in the shop working on marginal improvements might be fun but time at the range is very much more fun and brings greater improvement.

Tim

[MBTcustom]

Would water dropping effect the weight of the bullet trial?
Does water dropping contort a long rifle bullet, so the concentricity of the bullet changes?
I also weigh my rifle bullets and use a plus or minus .1 grain. Pistol bullets I personally don't think they need to be that consistent for my purposes.
Goodsteel definitely got me interested in doing so experimenting.

Well I'm no expurt but since you ask, water dropping does nothing to change the weight of the boolits unless you forget to dry them off (face palm).
does it distort them? It may slightly, but I confess I don't know, but feel free to post your findings here. Lord knows I need all the help I can get LOL!

[MBTcustom]

Tim

Thanks for the report. I have to admit that my first impulse was, "it does not matter." I came around quickly and thank you for not only doing the testing but documenting it and sharing.

I have done the same weight sampling but without the repeat with process changes and repeat sampling. Clearly, it can only be a benefit to modify your process to produce a more consistent product.

Your casting consistency is certainly better than mine was when I did my testing, sorry I did not document my work to share it. I have not weighed a lot of bullets in years but I do have many unsized bullets that I could weigh but I am not sure they are all from the same casting session although each box is of a uniform alloy I may have cast them over a period of days. I do not have a good digital scale so weight sorting bullets is slow. I might be inclinded to weigh some bullets from my last casting session that is with a new mould.

In defence of those that say all that matters is how they shoot. I have taken to eliminating non-value adding processes in my reloading. I do not clean primer pockets, I do not uniform primer pockets or ream flash holes except for bench rest ammo. I only weigh powder charges for certain rounds or loads.

I do sort brass by headstamp and number of times loaded. I keep case lengths pretty uniform. I neck turn my bench rest brass.

Right now my ammo is mostly better than I can shoot. I need a lot more time at the range as I find that if I do not shoot enough my skills suffer. Time in the shop working on marginal improvements might be fun but time at the range is very much more fun and brings greater improvement.

Tim

Well, it's like this: Now that I took a day to have fun with a friend making boolits, drinking coffee, smoking cigarettes, cutting up and measuring the carp out of everything, and finding that I can get more consistency by priming the spout, do you really think I'll ever just throw alloy into the mold with that pot again? It won't cost me a thing in the future, and I'm a better caster for it.
I posted it here so that if people are just too pressed for time, and too petrified of measuring something, and just hate casting too much to follow my footsteps, they can just read what I did and save themselves some trouble.

I agree with everything you just posted, and honestly, I'm not a good enough shot to make use of these supremely consistent boolits either, but I'll tell you one thing: I now know I'm a good enough caster to make those consistent boolits, and that makes me happy.

Now I have to just find a way to do even better.......

[W.R.Buchanan]

Well Tim, you stirred this one up didn't ya?

Nice job on showing everyone that they might actually start thinking about improving themselves.

I use this little measuring stick on virtually everything I do.

"I strive for perfection on everything I do,,, the closer I get the happier I am."

I also have a little saying that a guy once told me . He said,,, "If your work sucks,,, You suck !"

Let me qualify this a little for those who may take offense. You need to at least "try" to do your best on everything you do. The only person you will normally have to please, unless you are doing work for others, is yourself. Some people just have higher standards than others, so as long as you're happy,,, It's all good.

What's Phil say? "everybody is happy, happy, happy !"

I have literally let projects sit for years because I reached a point where I couldn't produce the result I desired with the knowledge or equipment I had at the time. Then at some later date all of a sudden I figure out how to do something or acquire a new tool, and I can go back and complete the project that has been sitting. This has been especially true of gunstock work and my Jeep project.

On the Jeep project it usually takes me longer to figure out what to do than to actually do it, and since I am making that whole project up as I go anyway, I got 8 years in that one, so it kind of has to come out good.

With the gunstocks it is my reluctance to ruin a beautiful piece of wood by not knowing exactly what I should do in a given situation. You can't put wood back that easy if you make a mistake.

People need to extract "Personal Satisfaction" as much as possible, from everything they create or do. It makes life worth living. It gives purpose and it creates a yardstick to measure your progress in any given discipline. Competition is your friend and makes you better, even if it is only competition with yourself.

Not saying you should be looking for much satisfaction when taking out the trash, but if the result is worthy of note then you should puff up a little. I always let my wife know when I did it so I can get some acknowledgment from her that I lifted a finger and did something useful around the house.

Lets talk about patting yourself on the back.

Whereas this is considered a bit much by some, I personally think it is a good thing since it speaks to that personal satisfaction thing I was talking about earlier. It also builds self esteem which we all know is so important because if you don't like yourself, probably nobody else will either. The way you pat yourself on the back is where the social component comes into play, and everyone has to figure this out for themselves and how to get by without looking like a self centered *****..

I also like to show people things I've done, and if it is worthy of note they will respond with compliments. However, lots of times I am showing what I've done so that others may follow, or so that they may pick up a new technique, or just learn something new. This is called sharing your work, and its a good thing.

With respect to boolit casting, one point that was brought up earlier but not emphasized, is "percentage of relative boolit weight." .2 gr on a 100 gr boolit is a larger percentage of total boolit weigh than .2 gr on a 400 gr boolit. So the bigger the boolit the farther you can be away from the norm and still have a good boolit. IE the parameters become looser the bigger you get. This should not effect you mentally.

Also I have found that short fat boolits are easier to get right than long skinny ones. Also Brass moulds seem to run better than aluminum moulds and Steel moulds seem to work well easier than aluminum ones do too. That said I have several Lee moulds that make very consistent boolits and have ran perfectly for my entire boolit casting career, but I have other much more expensive aluminum moulds that are a PITA and one in particular that I have never gotten even one good boolit out of. Holding onto that one until the knowledge to make it work comes along?

In closing I think you should strive to do this batch better than the last batch.

We all won't be watching,,, but "you" WILL KNOW!

Just remember,,, "if your work sucks,,, you suck." Self damnation is the worst of all, so try to avoid it at all cost.

Randy

[MrWolf]

goodsteel, thanks for the post. I have not started casting yet but have ordered moulds on GB's and am scrounging around for lead. These types of discussions help to better familiarize the process and what to do and not do, at least for me. Thanks again as I really appreciate what is available to learn here.

[fastfire]

After reading this last night I used the (Priming the spout) method with a mold that was giving me fits and all is well now. I can see how priming would affect consistency, now......we need to somehow put a heater on the spout and hook it up to the PID controller!
Years ago I started weighing my J-word rifle bullets and ever since can not shoot with confidence without doing this knowing how much differance it makes.

Well, it's official. Priming the spout eliminated the preference between cavities. I took the boolits that were in the longest strings shown in the link up yonder and seperated them into individual cups by cavity. Then I weighed each of the cups.
Without priming the spout, I saw a very clear progression in the cavities. Without fail, the first two cavities filled would produce less good boolits than the last two cavities filled. The test I just ran showed that all the cups were pretty close to the same weight range. 1 and 3 were identical, and so were 2 and 4.
I'd say that's "Theory proven" with this mold and this alloy, and this crazy nut on the stream switch. LOL!

[SciFiJim]

I can see how priming would affect consistency, now......we need to somehow put a heater on the spout and hook it up to the PID controller!

Hmm. How about a constantly flowing lead fountain?

If there were some way to return the poured non boolit lead in a steady consistent fashion, the pot would not drain so fast.

[fastfire]

Got me thinking now. It'd about have to be from one pot to another.And there that sets up more issues that need work.

Hmm. How about a constantly flowing lead fountain?

If there were some way to return the poured non boolit lead in a steady consistent fashion, the pot would not drain so fast.

[btroj]

I don't think a PID helps as much as consistent timing, rhythm, and pour technique. Rhythm is what dictates mould temp which is, in my opinion, more important than melt temp. Vary the rhythm and you vary the mould temp, this is what leads to variations in weight and diameter.

Again, it is far more important to have a mental PID that control your pouring and timing technique than it is to use one on the pot. Of course this is only my opinion and I'm not even smart enough to be an internet expurt.

[popper]

Good work Tim. I have found the PID helps greatly. I also don't put sprue back in the pot ( why put dirty alloy in the pot?) until I collected a bunch and then I wait for temp to get back to normal, stir & clean before pouring. Running the spout (Lee dripper) helps by pouring properly hot alloy, not the cold drip. I did the same weight check on PCd 31-165 boolits, checking coating thickness. Got to +/- 0.5 gr. with the electric scale ( 0.2 gr accuracy), and 2 groups spread 1 gr apart, bell curve for each. All were cast in the same session but coated in 2 batches. So we do learn something from our experiments. I did do the weight test on a large batch a while back, it did have the bell curve but outside points were within +/- 0.2 gr. So the variance is +/- 0.3%. Assuming no voids the variance is in fillout & coating thickness. Will it make a difference, not with my shooting skills anyway.

[dtknowles]

I wonder if a dripping drip-o-matic would be like automatic spout priming?

Tim

[Hamish]

I also don't put sprue back in the pot ( why put dirty alloy in the pot?)

Huh? Was it "dirty alloy" when it came out a few seconds before? Or is this one of those "You're a dirty, dirty boy" things,,,,?

I have reached one, concrete, undeniable conclusion because of this thread.

I need a another, larger pot.

[220]

Thanks for posting goodsteel, like a lot of others most of my casting is for pistol and after a fair bit of testing I know that in reality I can get more accuracy than needed with far bigger variations than you are chasing.
Doesn't mean I'm not interested in reducing my weight variation.
Anything that can help to reduce variations can only improve things.
Just because 8moa is in theory enough accuracy to shoot a possible score doesn't mean I want cast boolits that will only shoot 8moa.

[popper]

I think the dripomatic does help keep the spout hot. Dirty alloy as in oxidized, like the crud that collects on the sides & bottom no matter how clean it is when you begin. I don't flux when casting so any crud just stays in the melt. When I recycle the sprue, I stir, scrape (specially around & behind the pintle) & skim. Appears to work.

[TheCelt]

I think the dripomatic does help keep the spout hot. Dirty alloy as in oxidized, like the crud that collects on the sides & bottom no matter how clean it is when you begin. I don't flux when casting so any crud just stays in the melt. When I recycle the sprue, I stir, scrape (specially around & behind the pintle) & skim. Appears to work.

Hadn't thought about the oxidation, thanks for pointing that out. I'll collect sprues and rejects till I have to add metal and clean again while waiting for the pot to come up to temp. Dang I love this site!!!

[osteodoc08]

Goodsteel,

What was your total weight variance? Perhaps we can calculate a standard deviation and see how small we can get that with the techniques you are creating.

Thank you for the info on all this. Ill work on these techniques to become a better caster.

How do the "big boys" compare as far as weight variation goes?

I also vote for sticky status. This is good stuff.

[jonk]

I don't now and can't see that I ever will weigh my bullets. Obviously I reject those with overt flaws, but I have done the whole 'weight them' thing and compared. What I learned- ymmv, of course- was that with a 200 grain bullet, my castings dropped from the mold at 196 to 203 grains; and with a proven load, the extremes still shot a MOA group with a gun that normally does... about MOA. So I gave up on it.

I did re-try the expermient with a 315 gr minie in a muzzleloader. Same difference. not worth it.

[DavZee]

It seems that the temp of the alloy and the temp of the mold are critical in the casting of precise boolits.
There is a chapter on casting in the book " The Precision Reloading Guide". It is written by Roger Clouser and he advocates for the use of a thermometer on the mold in conjunction with the thermometer in the pot. Finding the combination of pot temp and mold temp that works best and keeping these temps constant turns out more consistent weights. He installed his 550 Deg. Thermometer by drilling a hole and inserting it with a brass shim. Precision Shooting columnist Merrill Martin was the first to plug a thermometer into a mold in his article in 1985.