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Thread: How consistent are you REALY???

  1. #1
    Boolit Grand Master

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    How consistent are you REALY???

    I was recently challenged by a more advanced caster here (45 2.1) to work to achieve near perfect consistency in my casting. I was told that if I do it right, I should be able to drop hundreds of boolits with less than .2 grains total deviation.
    I realized that I have never really tested a casting session to see exactly what I do and how consistently I cast.

    So I cast 100 boolits and proceeded to prove to myself that I am so far off the mark it aint even funny! Its true, I had many consistent boolit weights, but instead of just shrugging and throwing the culls back in the pot, I decided to record them. Not only that, but when I decided to only keep the boolits that landed in a .2 grain window, I basically ended up throwing more than half of them back in the pot. So I started lining them up on the bench according to weight in .1 grain increments. I have done this before, but I never tried to make sense of it, or put them in a row.
    When I did, I saw that the boolits produced a bell curve of sorts. Literally a graph of my proficiency as a caster! The shorter and broader the curve, the worse I was casting. In contrast, the higher and narrower the curve, the better I was casting.
    Let me walk you through what I did:

    So this first graph was me casting at 700* with 50/50, in a Lee 20lb pot, with a brass MP four cavity mold, with a 10 second dwell after the drop.
    Attachment 91247
    I changed to a ladle and cast these
    Attachment 91246
    I then ran the mold hot and eliminated the dwell after the drop. Open and shut, peddle to the mettle.
    Attachment 91248

    Now, at this point, even though I was seeing improvement, another test I was doing was telling me that there was something going on with the mold. You see I had witnessed the cavities in the mold so that I could tell the boolits apart after they had dropped. Once the curve was established, I would take the best boolits out of the middle of the curve, and separate them into each of four cups based on which cavity they dropped from.......then I would weigh the cups of boolits to see if there was any correlation between a certain cavity and the boolits that landed in those two perfect strings in the middle of the curve. What I discovered surprised me.
    Every time, with startling consistency, the last cavity filled was producing the most consistent boolits. In other words, the cup that weighed the most, was always directly related to the cavity that was last filled.
    I tried and tried to think of why that might be. I called several people today and hashed the problem over. One of the people I called was Larry Gibson, and he speculated that the lead in the bottom of the pot, and especially around that spout, was cooler than the lead in the middle of the pot. This made perfect sense to me, because the spout has to be a source of heat loss since it's hanging out of the pot. He suggested that I might try putting an ingot mold under the spout and pouring some lead into it to "prime" the spout before filling the mold. He also suggested turning up the heat a little to 725*.
    So I figured what the heck? I turned up the juice, and put my ingot ladle under the spout, preheated my mold, and began. I would pour into the ladle for two seconds and then sweep the mold under the spout and begin filling the mold in the same order that I did before. This had a dramatic effect on my boolit graph, as I ran the good boolits right off the paper in no time and the discrepancies were reduced significantly.
    Attachment 91252
    Im still not there, but I realized that this trick can be used to find out all kinds of useful information about your casting technique, and where the weaknesses are in your method, as well as showing you in real time how effective a theory is.
    I want to extend a big thank you to Sergeant Mike as he was here with me for 6 hours today and helped me run these tests. He had a theory that if we used his Seaco lead pot, ran the melt at 875*, and pressure cast the boolits, then we would get better consistency. We tried it, and this is what the graph looked like:
    Attachment 91253
    It was easy to see that method was not going to work. The numbers just don't lie.

    Ideally, what I will strive for is to be able to cast 400 boolits and have only two rows of boolits as long as my bench, and two rows of boolits about 5 deep. That would be near perfect casting for all intents and purposes.

    I hope this trick will help you to see your consistency and help you diagnose problems in your methods.
    It sure was an eye opener for me!
    Last edited by MBTcustom; 12-21-2013 at 10:02 PM.
    Precision in the wrong place is only a placebo.

  2. #2
    Boolit Buddy Certaindeaf's Avatar
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    Great work!
    Sent from my computer using my fingers.

  3. #3
    Boolit Master
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    Great write-up Tim. You've got me thinking now.
    A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms *shall not be infringed*.

    "The greatest danger to American freedom is a government that ignores the Constitution."
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  4. #4
    Boolit Grand Master



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    You can also narrow the weight spread by not keeping any of the first 8-10 pours even after you pre-heat the mold on a hot plate. Don't even look at them, the first pours are simply to get the mold to and keep a uniform temp throughout the mold . Even with a pre-heated mold the first pours will always be the lighter boolits unless you really cook the mold hot when pre-heating.

    Rick
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  5. #5
    Boolit Master


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    What do you mean by 'pressure cast'?

    <---still pretty new to all this.

  6. #6
    Boolit Grand Master

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    That's where you stick the spout right into the sprue hole and shoot the alloy into the mold under pressure.
    Precision in the wrong place is only a placebo.

  7. #7
    Boolit Grand Master



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    Quote Originally Posted by goodsteel View Post
    That's where you stick the spout right into the sprue hole and shoot the alloy into the mold under pressure.
    Yes, the pressure comes from the weight of the alloy in the pot. The larger and fuller the pot the more pressure. As Tim found out from trying this I've never been to fond of it, it does tend give better fill-out but also whiskers & weight variation.

    Rick
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  8. #8
    Boolit Grand Master

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    I also ran a few tests with spout height, and how far to throw the alloy into the mold. I believe I was seeing 3/8" - 1/2" drop is about as good as it gets.
    I tried it at 1" and further, and that gave some seriously janky results.
    Last edited by MBTcustom; 12-22-2013 at 07:47 AM.
    Precision in the wrong place is only a placebo.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by cbrick View Post
    Yes, the pressure comes from the weight of the alloy in the pot. The larger and fuller the pot the more pressure. As Tim found out from trying this I've never been to fond of it, it does tend give better fill-out but also whiskers & weight variation.

    Rick
    I don't have a thermometer and when I first started casting I'd just cast as soon as the pot was hot enough to flow smoothly from a ladle. I then figured out that as it got hotter my bases filled out better, but along the way I figured out that tapping the handle-bolt of the mold on the edge of the pot just as I finish pouring seemed to really help my bases fill out. I have no idea what it does to weight consistency (because I've never compared it to another method), but if I tap the mold a couple of times IMMEDIATELY after filling the mold, I get much better base fillout.

  10. #10
    Boolit Master



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    Interesting, but does the less than 1% difference in weight really make any difference by the time the bullet gets to the target? Always seemed to me the shooter will affect the bullet placement much more than that. Plus I feel 100 bullets is not nearly enough of a group to test consistency, more like 500. I have weighed larger bunches of my bullets after casting and I tend to get 2 large groups close together and a few on the extreme ends. Also always wondered how much difference was between the cavities themselves. Another thing to consider was the head pressure of the pot. Theoretically a 40 lb Magma should be more consistent than a 20 lb LEE. Fortunately I rarely shoot over 100 yards so all of this is mostly a moot point for me.

  11. #11
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    First thing I suggest you do is to go to southern Illinois and have Bobby show you how it's done in person.

    2nd- take your 10 heaviest and your 10 lightest boolits mix them up randomly and go shoot a 20 shot composite group with a known GOOD LOAD.

    3rd- take 20 boolits from the middle that all weigh the same and repeat the 20 shot group.

    4th -pour yourself an adult beverage and cognitate on what you have learned

  12. #12
    Boolit Master AlaskanGuy's Avatar
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    +1 to what 357maximum says... I am gunns do just that...

  13. #13
    Boolit Master kenyerian's Avatar
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    Curious if your Lee Pot has a PID hooked up to it? If it doesn't do you think it would help? I've been seriously considering ways to make my results more consistant also. A PID is the next step I'm going to try and I think I will also order some lyman # 2. I've been trying to get better results with my 22 Hornet.

  14. #14
    Boolit Buddy hermans's Avatar
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    Amazing information Goodsteel, one is never too old to learn something new!

  15. #15
    Boolit Grand Master

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    Quote Originally Posted by 357maximum View Post
    First thing I suggest you do is to go to southern Illinois and have Bobby show you how it's done in person.

    2nd- take your 10 heaviest and your 10 lightest boolits mix them up randomly and go shoot a 20 shot composite group with a known GOOD LOAD.

    3rd- take 20 boolits from the middle that all weigh the same and repeat the 20 shot group.

    4th -pour yourself an adult beverage and cognitate on what you have learned
    Can I reverse that order? LOL!


    OK, first of all, even if it doesn't make any difference down range, I consider casting and shooting to be two separate disciplines loosely connected at the hip. A person can be quite good at one and suck muddy rocks at the other.
    That said, the only factors we have to judge our proficiency at the pot are:
    Alloy
    Weight
    Appearance
    Hardness/malleability
    And ultimately, downrange accuracy.

    The alloy is determined up front, or by laser XRF if you're lucky and really becomes the rose colored glasses through which you view each batch of boolits. The hardness can be tested but usually damages the boolit in some way (neither here nor there, smoke if ya got em). Obviously, shooting them is kind of final, no do-overs, no erasies, and you have rather decided to change sports there.
    All that's left is weight and appearance.
    All I did, was observe that the boolits produce a graph of proficiency if you will, and help you to see what is working for a particular mold.
    I'm a bit of an accuracy junky anyway. I really really care about the things I make being superbly accurate, and it always bugged me that I couldn't see the subtle effect a certain change in procedure would have on my casting.
    Neither here nor there.
    All I am saying is that if you want to know how accurate you are with your particular casting technique, mold, alloy, cadence, and mental constitution, you can visually measure that by ordering them by weight on a piece of paper.
    It does take some time, but the effect is fascinating!
    Last night I had to try it again.
    In this test, I ran the pot back at 700*, preheated the mold, threw out the first eight drops, and ran the spout for two full seconds before sweeping the mold under the stream and filling it.
    The results were dramatic!
    Attachment 91283
    I still have some variances, but I'm almost certain that came from the times I put the built up lead in the ladle back into the pot. This cooled the melt, which in turn made the mold run slightly cooler. I wish I could afford a 40lb magma pot, but that just isn't in the cards right now.
    But dang! I'm scaring the hell out of it with my Lee 20 pounder eh? LOL!
    Last edited by MBTcustom; 12-22-2013 at 02:44 PM.
    Precision in the wrong place is only a placebo.

  16. #16
    Boolit Buddy oldarkie's Avatar
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    I use a muffin pan marked 0 to 9,the two extra holes are for real oddballs,I remelt them and shoot the rest.
    OldArkie

  17. #17
    Boolit Grand Master

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    Next thing I'm going to do is to take that long string in the middle (173.3) and separate them by cavity and see if I have succeeded in evening out the %age of good boolits coming from the first cavity by priming the spout before pouring.
    I'll post results later.
    Precision in the wrong place is only a placebo.

  18. #18
    Boolit Grand Master

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    Well, it's official. Priming the spout eliminated the preference between cavities. I took the boolits that were in the longest strings shown in the link up yonder and seperated them into individual cups by cavity. Then I weighed each of the cups.
    Without priming the spout, I saw a very clear progression in the cavities. Without fail, the first two cavities filled would produce less good boolits than the last two cavities filled. The test I just ran showed that all the cups were pretty close to the same weight range. 1 and 3 were identical, and so were 2 and 4.
    I'd say that's "Theory proven" with this mold and this alloy, and this crazy nut on the stream switch. LOL!
    Precision in the wrong place is only a placebo.

  19. #19
    Boolit Grand Master



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    Quote Originally Posted by goodsteel View Post
    In this test, I ran the pot back at 700*, preheated the mold, threw out the first eight drops, and ran the spout for two full seconds before sweeping the mold under the stream and filling it.
    The results were dramatic!
    http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/...ps2bc3015e.jpg
    Who'da thunk it?

    Rick
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  20. #20
    Boolit Master
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    Thanks for the info, I've never really given much thought too it, but I'll give this try, now you got me courious as to how good my method is. I use an old U.S. Army spoon hammered into a v shape on the side with a wood handle, it looks crude, but it wooks well. now I'm gona find out how well!

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