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Thread: High performance buckshot - revisited...

  1. #21
    Boolit Master 5Shot's Avatar
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    BTW - there is an active group buy for a HM2 18 Cavity #1 Buck Mold. I have my name on the list...figure that will give me a more stable supply of shot and it only sets you back the equivalent of 16lbs of BPI Super Buck. I guess I have to buy handles and a nipper as well, but it will be money well spent.
    Last edited by 5Shot; 08-28-2014 at 10:56 AM.
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  2. #22
    In Remembrance

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    Just a bit of feedback: i shot a few of these Dixie 1-Buck loads, loaded as described w the substitution of hBN for motor mica on the wad, thru an open choke 870 20" bbl w iron sights.
    Patterned pretty well, abt 10" at 50yds.
    Neat load.
    C-
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    "...the civil libertarians and rationalists who are ever on the alert to oppose tyranny "failed to take into account man's almost infinite appetite for distractions." In 1984, Orwell added, people are controlled by inflicting pain. In Brave New World, they are controlled by inflicting pleasure. In short, Orwell feared that what we fear will ruin us. Huxley feared that what we desire will ruin us. This book is about the possibility that Huxley, not Orwell, was right.” -N.Postman

  3. #23
    Boolit Master pls1911's Avatar
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    I guess I'm missing something here...
    Why would one want a smaller/lighter projectile in lieu of a larger/heavier ball?
    I use components I have on hand for great results with my own cast true-to size 00 buck.
    I just posted this elsewhere:
    Click image for larger version. 

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ID:	115617Click image for larger version. 

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    Salvaging old Marlins is not a pasttime...it's a passion

  4. #24
    Boolit Master

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    pls1911, gotta have the details! nice pattern so what,s the load, distance and choke? thx.

  5. #25
    Boolit Master

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    ok, just saw other post. nice job. I'm about to try thes smoking 800x load, this from the IMR data page.
    12 GAUGE BUCKSHOT RELOADING DATA
    MFR.
    BP PRIMER IMR POWDER WAD COLUMN SDC BUFFER
    NO. DESIGNATION GRAINS MFR. DESIGNATION (GRAINS)
    BUCKSHOT NO. SIZE OF PELLETS
    MUZZLE VELOCITY (FT/SEC)
    CHAMBER PRESSURE (PSI)
    SHELL: FEDERAL 2 3/4" PLASTIC GOLD MEDAL
    FEDERAL 209A FEDERAL 209A FEDERAL 209A FEDERAL 209A FEDERAL 209A
    "HI-SKOR"700-X 17.5 PB 25.0 SR7625 30.0 "HI-SKOR"800-X 29.0 SR4756 37.0
    FED 12S3 FED 12S4 FED 12S4 FED 12S4 WIN WAA12R
    20 8 00 1230 20 8 00 1340 20 8 00 1410 20 8 00 1465 18 8 00 1545
    10900 10900 10800 10800 10900
    SHELL: REMINGTON 2 3/4" NITRO 27
    REMINGTON 209PSTS "HI-SKOR" 700-X 17.5 REM FIG8 20 8 00 1225 10700 FEDERAL 209A "HI-SKOR"700-X 17.0 REM FIG8 20 8 00 1210 10800 REMINGTON 209PSTS PB 25.0 REM SP12 20 8 00 1340 10600
    REMINGTON 209PSTS SR7625 30.5 REM SP12 20 8 00 1425 10800 FEDERAL 209A SR7625 27.0 REM SP12 20 8 00 1360 10800
    REMINGTON 209PSTS "HI-SKOR" 800-X 30.0 REM SP12 20 8 00 1475 10900
    REMINGTON 209PSTS SR4756 37.0 WIN WAA12R 18 8 00 1545 11000
    SHELL: WINCHESTER 2 3/4" AA
    WINCHESTER 209 "HI-SKOR"700-X 18.0 WIN WAA12R 20 8 00 1245 10800
    WINCHESTER 209 PB 27.5 WIN WAA12R 20 8 00 1410 10800
    WINCHESTER 209 SR7625 33.0 WIN WAA12R 20 8 00 1495 10600 FEDERAL 209A SR7625 29.5 WIN WAA12R 20 8 00 1430 11000
    WINCHESTER 209 "HI-SKOR"800-X 32.0 WIN WAA12R 20 8 00 1545 10700
    WINCHESTER 209 SR4756 39.5 WIN WAA12R 18 8 00 1595 10800
    Last edited by Hogtamer; 09-07-2014 at 12:34 PM. Reason: add data

  6. #26
    Boolit Bub
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hogtamer View Post
    ok, just saw other post. nice job. I'm about to try thes smoking 800x load, this from the IMR data page.
    12 GAUGE BUCKSHOT RELOADING DATA
    SDC BUFFER
    I too have the same data but am some what confused on exactly what SDC buffer is as compared to other buffers?
    Thanks
    Last edited by CANUCK; 09-07-2014 at 10:51 PM.

  7. #27
    Boolit Master pls1911's Avatar
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    Per Hogtamer's request, the load data for the photos above is this:
    Win AA hull
    WAA12 wad
    8 pellets oo buck (1 1/8 oz), no buffer
    19 grains Green Dot (because I was using it up... use your preference for 1 1/8 oz loads)
    That should yield about 1200 fps.

    The pattern shown was from a cylinder bore (unchoked) smooth bore Mossberg "slug barrel" at 30 yards.
    Tighter groups could be had with a single wrap of the wad petals with Scotch tape, but I prefer the pattern shown.
    Salvaging old Marlins is not a pasttime...it's a passion

  8. #28
    Boolit Master

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    The second load from the bottom of the table I posted above is really good. I used 9 of my cast .311 pellets instead of the 8 - 00 suggested and the BP #47 buffer mix. I used the last of my old red winchester wads but the BPI helix cushion driver 18 worked as well....both short wads for heavy payloads.

  9. #29
    Boolit Bub
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    Quote Originally Posted by CANUCK View Post
    I too have the same data but am some what confused on exactly what SDC buffer is as compared to other buffers?
    Thanks
    Anyone??

  10. #30
    Boolit Master
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    "I guess I'm missing something here...
    Why would one want a smaller/lighter projectile in lieu of a larger/heavier ball?" PLS1911


    Larger/heavier?

    Instead of using 130 to the pound pellets, try some 22 to the pound buckshot!

    Larger/heavier indeed!

  11. #31
    Boolit Master 5Shot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CANUCK View Post
    Anyone??
    It was a BPI product...WAS...don't know of any suitable substitute (may be one, but I don't know what that would be). Better off finding a current recipe.
    If you live on the razor's edge and slip, you will die in two pieces

  12. #32
    Boolit Bub
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    Quote Originally Posted by 5Shot View Post
    It was a BPI product...WAS...don't know of any suitable substitute (may be one, but I don't know what that would be). Better off finding a current recipe.
    Thank you!

  13. #33
    Boolit Master pls1911's Avatar
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    RMC...Yep You're right regarding pellets to buckshout, but I was referring to smaller buckshot vs larger.
    My point was I simply prefer 00. It's easier for me, free, and does the job.
    I do have and use #4, but I cast about 40 pounds of 00 Buck last year, loaded a box of shells for everyone I knew. Feedback has been positive ("don't shoot squirrels off the wife's bird feeder".... "throws remains across the pasture"..... etc)
    Salvaging old Marlins is not a pasttime...it's a passion

  14. #34
    Boolit Master
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    PLS1911:

    Aye, your reasoning was understood in context. At the same time the definition of "buckshot" has, of recent years, encompassed sizes well beyond tradition. My reply was made with that in mind.

    Your one ounce (8 pellet) load fits the AA12, 1 1/8 ounce shot cup, and indeed patterns well. The two pellet stack pattern is well know to relieve radial compression during passage through both forcing cone and choke. Further,I suspect the alloy of your leaden spheres results in a harder pellet than any swaged factory product. Both aspects combined with moderate velocity (< 1200 fps), lend all the more credence to your posted 30 yard pattern results.

    Green Dot powder has long been associated with tight center dense patterns in 1 1/8 ounce Trap loads. The late Don Zutz wrote extensively of his small pellet pattern tests with Green Dot. Along the way he concluded the powder was slow enough to minimize pellet setback deformation and yet fast enough to reduce pattern disrupting muzzle pressure.

    I have long used published 19.5 grain charges of Green Dot, behind the AA12 wad in the AA hull with larger shot (1.125 ounce #5 & #4) for small game with appropriate chokes, for the very reasons noted in Zutz's articles.
    Last edited by RMc; 07-22-2019 at 02:56 PM.

  15. #35
    Boolit Master

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    RMc, please consider and comment. I have "true" OO from COWW (.334 @ 54 grn each). In a 12 ga. I can make a stack of 3 per layer not using a shotcup but a thick Mylar wrap on top of a BPI x12x op seal and a 1/4" felt wad on top of that. How would you expect this to perform with regard to setback and deformation? I will be using slow burn Alliant Steel with charge weight per Ed Hubel. Also, how should wrap perform vs. a shotcup pattern wise? And how would buffer effect if at all? I appreciate your shared insight greatly!

  16. #36
    Boolit Master
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    Hogtamer,

    What goes around comes around. In 1963, Winchester introduced the Mark V buffered buckshot load with a plastic wrap around the payload. Shotgunners were astonished at the tighter patterns delivered. So, yes a heavy paper, (such as coin wrappers), plastic, or teflon wrap or a plastic shotcup will help aleviate pattern problems associated with direct bore friction on buckshot pellets.

    The obvious advantage of wraps, in buckshot load development, is in the larger pellets the thin wrap material allows. Even so, with the pellet size you mention a three pellet per layer stack is quite tight. (Three pellets of .334" diameter would be a slip fit in a .720" exit diameter choke.) In my experience a slightly looser stack seems to provides room for payload shift or flow during forcing cone and choke compression. So a shot wrapper also helps maintain the pattern advantage a two pellet per layer stack often brings with larger pellets.

    As for setback deformation, the heavier and longer the payload, the greater the forces of acceleration and inertia work to deform the pellets in setback, particularly those lowest in the shot column. As you already know, generally the harder the pellet alloy, the less it will deform. In the Green Dot load mentioned earlier, the powder contributes to pattern density with a slightly longer burn but not so much as to raise muzzle pressure in the light one ounce load - even in shorter barrels. Blue Dot and Steel are by contrast quite slow, (in shotgun terms), and maintain pressure further downbore. I have seen heavy lead loads with Steel (Alliant) powder cause the gas seal to flare unevenly due to high muzzle pressure in 21 inch barrels but not in 26" barrels! In practical terms then, load development requires more attention to load detail and choke selection to get the best patterns with heavy loads in short barrels than in longer field barrels.

    With buffer there is some debate on whether finer buffer or spherical buffer works better. My preference has been with PSB when used with hard buckshot pellets for what seems is greater contribution to pellet flow. YMMV.

    As with all things smoothbore, you have to pattern the load in your barrel and choke combination to know.

    I hope these thoughts help.









    Quote Originally Posted by Hogtamer View Post
    RMc, please consider and comment. I have "true" OO from COWW (.334 @ 54 grn each). In a 12 ga. I can make a stack of 3 per layer not using a shotcup but a thick Mylar wrap on top of a BPI x12x op seal and a 1/4" felt wad on top of that. How would you expect this to perform with regard to setback and deformation? I will be using slow burn Alliant Steel with charge weight per Ed Hubel. Also, how should wrap perform vs. a shotcup pattern wise? And how would buffer effect if at all? I appreciate your shared insight greatly!
    Last edited by RMc; 10-28-2020 at 04:02 PM.

  17. #37
    Boolit Master

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    Excellent!!! And thank you. As it happens I loaded and shot 3 different loads and your observations proved exactly correct. First load was 4x3 with x12x seal, 1/4" felt, mylar wrap and buffer with appropriate charge of Steel per Ed Hubel and BPI 47 buffer. Nothing hurt but my shoulder @ 30 yds, the target not so much. I could stack 3 as you said but tight fit. Next load was 10 pellets, same base as above with only a little buffer on the bottom stack to get the load started evenly. Again, a stout load but manageble and the target was much worse for wear! 8 of 10 pellets in a legal pad sheet @ 30 yds. Ran out of the good x12x op wads and substituted the seal cut off another wad but otherwise the same....total destruction of OP wad and mylar wrap, felt was nowhere to be found and as you would expect no pattern. All shot from 28" 870 full choke. Lesson learned: More pellets does not mean denser pattern. Slower powder requires heavy, full fitting seal. The felt wad under the pellets perfectly cushions the pellets and the buffer seems to add nothing to improve pattern. COWW is apparently hard enough to limit deformation, as a couple of pellets I managed to dig out of a pine tree were remarkably intact, with just enough flattening to make them more lethal.

  18. #38
    Boolit Master
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    Hogtamer:

    Your reply reminded me of some reports I've seen by Wallace Labisky on Mylar failure as a primary shot wrapper with lead loads. If I recall correctly, Mylar was reportedly heat sensitive and on occasion, became "welded" to the case wall - especially if the gas seal was not particularly efficient. Mylar was originally intended as an tough additional protective liner for use with steel shot wads. You may want to take this into consideration.
    Last edited by RMc; 09-22-2014 at 06:59 PM.

  19. #39
    Boolit Master
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    "...buffer seems to add nothing to improve pattern." Hogtamer

    Yes, soft low antimony lead pellets derive the greatest benefit from buffer in resisting pellet deformation. However, don't be too quick to write off the added role buffer can play in altering pellet shift or flow characteristics during forcing cone and choke transit. All of the load factors - velocity, pellet hardness, pellet stack fit, protection from bore scrub, buffering and so on - each can play a role in producing tight, even results in the controlled chaos that we call a shotgun pattern.

    Last edited by RMc; 09-20-2014 at 12:08 PM.

  20. #40
    Boolit Master

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    Lot of good info herein but I'm still looking for something definitive about roll crimping vs star crimp regarding pressure and pattern differences.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check