Need suggestions to remove 116 year old screw.

[Janoosh]

Allt of good advice here. As there may be rust build up on the bottom of the screw, and you are trying to bring the screw out, see if the screw will drive in deeper, first. Then, if you have access to the bottom of the screw, remove whatever rust you can see. Then, oil, and try to back the screw out.

[Blanket]

a soldering iron is good to apply heat to the screw dirrectly

[W.R.Buchanan]

I have one more suggestion on this topic. I have done this extensively while working on F4's and on just about any larger screw that is stubborn. I use this technique frequently when working on Navy stuff that has been out in the weather along time and virtually glued together with corrosion.

You use a 3/8 drive Speed Wrench, hopefully one with a fairly big knob on the end.(like a Brace) This way you can lean into the tool and then wiggle the handle back and forth which will MOST ALWAYS break the screw loose.

On the top of the wing of an F4E there is a stress panel that has nearly 400 Offset Phillips screws (wormy head) holding it in place. Normally it requires a machinist to drill out a large portion of those screws, as none of them give up easily. I have gotten all but 2 out on that panel three different times using my technique of simply wiggling the screw back and forth until it breaks loose. These screws were all held in place by corrosion, and the combination of having your body weight on the tool to hold it in perfect contact with the screw so it doesn't work the head, and the ability to jiggle it back and forth quickly so it breaks the corrosion loose is a winner.

As far as drilling the screw out the hot tip is a left hand twist drill. What happens is the drill generates heat and eventually the remnant of the screw breaks loose and the drill backs it right out of the hole. The kicker with drilling out screws is that you absolutely must drill thru the center of the screw. Otherwise you FU the host piece, which is a negative experience.

This is why I recommend having someone who knows exactly what he is doing do it for you. That way you have someone else to blame if it goes badly.

Randy

[bstone5]

I use left handed drills a lot to remove rusty bolts, i apply the automatic transmission fluid mixed with a little acetone first, let the mixture set a while around the screw to soak into the joint.

This works most of the time.

[MtGun44]

If you drill, left hand bit is THE SOLUTION, bar none. Absolutely magic.

Bill

[Marvin S]

I have one more suggestion on this topic. I have done this extensively while working on F4's and on just about any larger screw that is stubborn. I use this technique frequently when working on Navy stuff that has been out in the weather along time and virtually glued together with corrosion.

You use a 3/8 drive Speed Wrench, hopefully one with a fairly big knob on the end.(like a Brace) This way you can lean into the tool and then wiggle the handle back and forth which will MOST ALWAYS break the screw loose.

On the top of the wing of an F4E there is a stress panel that has nearly 400 Offset Phillips screws (wormy head) holding it in place. Normally it requires a machinist to drill out a large portion of those screws, as none of them give up easily. I have gotten all but 2 out on that panel three different times using my technique of simply wiggling the screw back and forth until it breaks loose. These screws were all held in place by corrosion, and the combination of having your body weight on the tool to hold it in perfect contact with the screw so it doesn't work the head, and the ability to jiggle it back and forth quickly so it breaks the corrosion loose is a winner.

As far as drilling the screw out the hot tip is a left hand twist drill. What happens is the drill generates heat and eventually the remnant of the screw breaks loose and the drill backs it right out of the hole. The kicker with drilling out screws is that you absolutely must drill thru the center of the screw. Otherwise you FU the host piece, which is a negative experience.

This is why I recommend having someone who knows exactly what he is doing do it for you. That way you have someone else to blame if it goes badly.

Randy

That is exactly right. I try to tell people at work the same thing, some get it some dont. I work as a machinist on KC-135's and remove thousands of buggered screws for people. A 3/8 HSS lathe bit ground to a slow taper makes the best screw extractor when used with a speed handle. There is also a device called a knocker or old man that requires a rivit gun. It workes very well. Patience and teqnique are a must.

[W.R.Buchanan]

MarvinS: I actually won $25 for that suggestion when I was in the AF at Clark AFB in the Phillipines. That took place in 1972-3

IN fact I probably worked on some of the same KC135's that you have. It is amazing how many times they can be rebuilt. I saw Buff's at Kelley AFB in TX, which is the IRAN facility for B52's, that had over 250,000 hours on them IN 1970! Those airplanes are still flying! and have been rebuilt probably three times more since I saw them.

Back in those days there were B52's and KC's in the air 24/7/365 to keep Russia honest. After the cold war ended they trimmed the flight hours back, but those airplanes still got flown more than any other aircraft in history.

Many people don't realize that the B52's, the C130's and the KC135's will be the first airplanes to make 100 years in service. I doubt whether the C130's will be A models simply because they are now making brand new ones I think they are up to "J" or "K" now. IF you see them they are the ones with the 5 and 6 bladed props. I have a horn button from one and it is one of my most prized possessions.

I ran the Base Flight Phase Dock at Clark from 1972-3.

I have a good friend who makes a good living producing replacement body panels for C130's and he is busy all the time. There are no newly designed airplanes that can do what these airplanes can do, better, as a result it pays to keep rebuilding them.

Kind of like old guns that people say are obsolete. I always ask if they would volunteer to be shot at by an obsolete gun like a 400 year old Flintlock?

Never seem to get any takers. Those obsolete guns and those old aircraft will easily outlast all of us, and have already outlasted most of us.

Randy

[merlin101]

If you drill, SHARPleft hand bit is THE SOLUTION, bar none. Absolutely magic.

Bill

There ya go!

[Marvin S]

I've worked on 135's for 30 years so far so im sure we have been on many of the same tail numbers. I started out in phase docks/crew chief then went to machine/weld shop about midway. Worked on many different airframes in deployed locations including them late model 130's. One other tip I would throw in is there are no better apex bits to be had than Apex brand.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Marvin: I'll second the nod to Apex brand bits. Definitely the best out there. Problem is there are so many imitations now you seldom see the Apex brand.

I never got wormy head bits to last very long no matter who made them, I'm lucky to have the few that I have because most people don't even know what an Offset Phillips Head is.

Randy

[Char-Gar]

Or as MtGunn44 has suggested but put that vise under a drill press, chuck up the proper fitting blade. Lower the spindle and hand turn the chuck.

That is the approved way to remove rusty/stuck screws. Lock the piece down in a drill press vise. You can put the key in the chuck to give you something to push against when you turn the chuck by hand. Use your penetrating oil and put a driver in the slot and give the butt of the driver a few whacks to loosen stuff up. Lock the drill press quill down when the driver bit is properly in the slot.

Be aware, you can with the above method, twist the head right off the screw, if it is really really rusted, but the slot won't be buggered. You then have to drill out the rest of the screw. I have done this, with a big screw head and a skinny screw shank. This is quite rare, but I want to be honest with you.

If you do twist off the head, it is just a matter of putting the right drill bit in the chuck as everything is already in alignment and locked down.

[MBTcustom]

Impact drivers work pretty well for big screws with robust slots, but not for little ones. The head may snap off, but it's much more likely that the screwdriver tip snaps off and the sharp end scratches the receiver when it snaps.
You can put almost 500 degrees F on blued metal before it starts to turn colors. Even then, it's not the bluing that is turning, but rather the normal straw/brown/purple/pale blue that steel turns when it gets hot. That action was tempered at 800 degrees+ and it can get that hot again without becoming unsafe, so 400-500 is no problemo.

Heat is your friend. So is time. So is ATF fluid.
If you still need to get that screw out, give the butstock a sharp bump with the palm of your hand and wiggle it off. It should come straight back.
Disassemble the firearm as much as possible and get the forend off too.
Go to the store and get a heat ribbon, like they use to keep stock tanks from freezing. Also get about 3 quarts of ATF fluid.
Pour the ATF fluid into a coffee can, or some metal container, and wrap it up with the heat ribbon, and wrap that with aluminum foil.
Sit the action in the ATF fluid so that the screw is submerged, and wrap up the top of the can with aluminum foil around the part of the firearm that is sticking out of the can.
Plug in the ribbon and walk away for 3 days. (aaaawww maaaannn! three days?!?!?) Yeah, I said three days. It took the better half of a century to stick that screw, and in comparison its not much time.

Now, take the action out of the can and wipe it down.
Vice it in a padded vice, and take a screwdriver that fits the screwslot (you said you had one? Good man. Be sure you have three extras.)
Apply downward pressure and twist the screwdriver. You will see the blade start to twist, and you will get a feeling like it's about to break. At this point, it's important to believe this will work! Will that screw to come out. If it moves a little, then reverse direction on the screw and then try it again. It should come out.
If it doesn't, then grab your propane torch and start playing the heat on the action right under the screw. Do not go too far. You will see the ATF start to smoke and you know you are just about there when it continues to smoke after you remove the torch from it.
Screw your courage to the sticking place (with a properly fitting screwdriver LOL!) and try the screwdriver again.
If it doesn't work, then go ahead and cuss a little and count your lucky stars that you knew when to quit!
Throw it back in the container, wrap it up again, and leave it for another three days.
Repeat the steps with the screwdriver, then the torch, and then the screwdriver again.

I have never had this not work, but if this process fails, you will have to drill out the screw. If this is needed, then I would recommend you take it to your gunsmith and have him get after it with his nimble little fingers and his big, accurate milling machine, and his perfectly sharpened drill bits.
If you simply can't afford to pay your gunsmith $50 to get that screw out, then I would definitely recommend a left twist drill as others have.

[bhn22]

a soldering iron is good to apply heat to the screw dirrectly

That was going to be my suggestion.

[bosterr]

Hello everybody! I'm, the OP. Since I started getting suggestions I have ordered a bunch of spare screwdriver bits from Chapman including 3 each of 4 sizes for spares. I also ordered a 3/8" impact driver from Amazon that looks WAY too big for such a delicate operation. I'll save that for working on my GF's Honda brakes. I have a good bench vice but no drill press vice. I'm going to try the ATF/acetone soak for a few days then give it a try. The wood to metal fit on this gun is superbly tight, so I'm pretty leary about trying to remove the stock for fear of it chipping. Tim, I love reading your posts! No doubt you've been around the block a couple of times. I'll start the soak today and I'll let you guys know next week. Lots of "experierence" has responded and I sure do appreciate it! Bob

[Char-Gar]

Everybody needs a decent drill press if they are going to handload or mess with guns. Jet makes a decent 17" model either as a floor of bench model. I have been using one for 7 years with complete satisfaction. If I did commercial work, I would want something up the price ladder, but for my occasional use, the Jet works just fine.

Another basic tool is a bench grinder with a medium grinding wheel on one side and a fine wire wheel on the other. Again, Jet makes a decent model.

Jet tools are Asian but the American importer holds the makers feet to the fire on quality. They cost more than other Asian tools but are worth it. Call their customer service with a problem and you will get some old American machinist that knows his way around a machine shop.

I was reluctant to use Jet tools, until I had a conversation with Lee Jurris who builds 1,000 yard bench rest rifles. He told me that has nothing but Jet machines in their shop and were happy with them.

If a fellow wants to add a 3rd machine to his home shop a good lathe is next up. Mine is a 1947 Logan and is all I will never need.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Tim: have you figured out how to heat your **** yet?

Just wondering if you'd solved that problem yet?

I have two older Craftsman Drill presses. I paid $25 for one and $35 for the other. Garage sales are the place to find them, and you should be able to get a good one for <$50.

I do hope this screw comes out soon, other wise there is no telling where this thread will end up.

Randy

[seagiant]

Hi,
Here's a nice little Delta drill press I picked up for $35 OTD! I do love vintage!

[W.R.Buchanan]

Yes Greg: the older style, pre Chinese equipment is the really good stuff, and when talking about home style equipment is seldom worn out. A small amount of cosmetic work and the thing is good as new.

That one of yours is "industrial quality" and has already lasted for 60+ years and will probably outlast us as well.

The biggest problem with most drill presses is they simply run too fast. My first Craftsman only had the normal 4 step pulley system. The second one I bought had the intermediate reduction system that gives like 12 speeds. I transferred all those parts to my first DP and it is used daily.

I run it in bottom gear always as that is the speed you should always run countersinks which is what that machine is used for most. Drills, even small ones, work just fine at slower speeds. It is also silent which is a welcome feature when working in a machine shop. You just gotta remember to turn it off when done.

When you consider that the speed for a 1/2" drill in steel is 250-300 rpms and countersinks need to run at 100-150 rpms, running slower is better for you in the long run.

Finding parts can be challenging, but we have Ebay now so the stuff is out there, however most of this type of stuff is located in garages around the country.

My only regret is painting this machine Chrome Yellow which was a rebellion against machine gray during my earlier years. Someday I will fix this.

Randy

[ndnchf]

I don't mean to go off track here, but talking about good American made drill presses, i thought I'd show mine. Its a Walker-Turner WT900 from around 1951. It was in sad shape when I got it. The head casting was cracked, but I got another good one to use and restored it. Here is what I started with:



I stripped it down, installed new bearings in the head stock. Cleaned, de-rusted and degreased it, then repainted it. It had the wrong motor, so I replaced it with a 3/4hp, 220v motor (put new bearings in it while I was refurbing it). I added a Variable Frequency Drive (VFD) to modernize it. The VFD allows it to run on 110v house current and provides almost infinite variable speed. Very handy for running it real slow when needed. Speed is adjusted by simply turning a knob on the control panel. No belt or pulley changing required.





The quill locks in place when needed to remove those stubborn screws as described. This is built like a tank, runs smooth as silk and will easily last another 60+ years with just a little care. There are a lot of these older machine tools out there. They show up on Craigslist regularly. Good luck.

[Marvin S]

Wow that VFD is small, mine is a FM 300 IIRC. Nice looking machine. Back on the screw if you aint done so yet take a drift or pin punch to the top of the head and give it a few good taps. It will restore dissplaced metal and help loosen it.