.45 ACP +P, .45 Super and .45-08 Heavy Boolit Load Data?

[300savage]

a 255 grn rnfp boolit seats no deeper in the case than does a 230 hp jacketed.
i commonly shoot a 275 grn by hunters supply with zero feeding or pressure issues just under 900 fps also using 2400.
but now this is a totally stock glock which as we all know is simply the greatest 45 ever made..
that is until we start trying to improve it with "fully supported barrels" and heavier springs..

really though there truly is a lot of stuff out there we get sold on the idea of that makes far better press than sense.

you are reinventing the wheel my friend, as you will discover in time if you research it long enough.

[longbow]

300savage:

If you are shooting a 275 gr. boolit at 900 FPS that may be just the ticket. He has 1000 + FPS in his head for 250 gr. Not sure why but he does.

The .45-08 is reported to produce 1300 FPS using a 200 gr. boolit with load data from Armco, .45-08 brass and a 22 lb. or heavier recoil spring.

Actually, I am not trying to reinvent anything. My friend asked if I could help so I am trying to find out what others have done and what is available and recommended. So far I am finding quite polarized opinions on the whole idea.

I certainly do not want to be doing anything dangerous. As for beating up the gun, this is his choice. As long as there is no danger then it is up to him if he wants to subject his gun to raping wear/peening or whatever. Once load work up is done, he will likely never shoot another one of these rounds.

His goal is to use the gun he likes and is comfortable with if he needs it in an emergency. While I would choose a different gun and more powerful round, this is his preference.

I like a challenge and this could be interesting.

So back to your 275 gr. load at 900 FPS, have you compared terminal ballistics to lighter boolits at higher velocity? Like a 200 gr. at 1300 FPS?

I am curious why Armco went with the light boolit at high velocity rather than a heavier boolit at lower velocity.

Now, load data for .45 Super is right about where my friend wants to be but I am not sure he will get there with what he has.

Still researching. Lots to learn and consider.

Longbow

[DRNurse1]

i am pretty sure that a heavier spring just beats hell out of your gun going into battery.
the bullet should be out of the barrel before the action ever begins to move so spring strength really does very little except slap your slide forward much harder.

Interesting thesis but a bit misdirected. The spring absorbs the rearward energy created when the boolit is moving down the barrel. More mass to move, at the same velocity yields more energy to absorb. The recoil spring for the 185 gr SWC I use is about 12# but the one for the 230gr RN is 22#. You are correct that the force has to go somewhere when the slide returns to battery, so there is more forward force in the heavier spring. The trade off being 'felt recoil' (lighter spring yields more felt recoil) and the battering your gun receives by not absorbing the rearward force in the spring.

Either way, the energy has to go somewhere. Those darned physics guys, any way.

[C. Latch]

I'm mainly just replying to add this to my subscriptions so I can follow it as it progresses. Part of me would like to turn one of my 1911s into a 'woods gun' with a heavy RNFP at +P levels. Part of me thinks I need to just stick with the .45 Colt for that and leave the .45ACP as it was designed (230ish at 850ish). Either way, I find these threads interesting.

[300savage]

longbow i havent checked to be honest, reason being that i absolutely abhor any handgun round that does not start with a .4 or that runs over 1100 fps.
but i also want the mostest i can get inside those parameters in whatever package i am packing. that means heavy bullets at medium heavy velocity.
the reason for all of this is simply because first of all i refuse to shoot a handgun that is shooting fater than the speed of sound unless it is an emergency, and second any caliber smaller than .40 rings my friggin ears regardless of its velocity.
i made this rule for myself years ago because I do not wear hearing protection on the ranch or when hunting and hate stinging my ears everytime i have to shoot a feral dog or hog or whatever needs ventilated.
I have also found though that in an open sighted handgun there is little need unless you are in grizz country to ever need more than about 255 grns at 1050 max, or 275 at 900.
or a 200 grn.40 bumping up against 1100.
these dont hurt my ears, shoot flat enough to about the limit of my opensight pistola shooting range, which is ideally about 30 yards, realistic max of not much more than 75. after that i am just shooting at them because i don't like em..
but i do know that when you hit one at whatever range with one of these hunks of soft grey metal they damned sure know they have been hit.
i would hate to be put to the test with a dangerous critter with only a handgun of any kind to be honest, but to be honest i wouldnt walk around scared in just about any hunting grounds anywhere in this world if one of these was all I had.
but if i had to walk in big bear country on a regular basis i would be cranking things up considerably and damage to my gun be damned.
but probably would never have to shoot it at a bad critter ever anyway, as i am a firm believer in carrying an adequate caliber rifle in my hand anytime i am hiking in bear country of any kind.


and drnurse, i still aint convinced due to the timing of the action beginning to cam out of battery being behind the escape of pressure out the end of the barrel, but what the hek hey...

[bhn22]

Excessive return energy from overspringing generally manifests itself in the lower barrel lugs getting battered.

[ole 5 hole group]

Sorry Double Post

[ole 5 hole group]

You can get that 1911 up to speed but there's not many loads that are real accurate - meaning putting 5 shots in a 5 or 6 inch group at 50 yards. Off a rest of course but you should be able to do close to that off-hand.

I have one load that I found for one of my 1911's that is both accurate and delivers the mail upon request. 8.0 grains of VV N350 behind a 265 grain Beartooth cast bullet using a WLP primer - that puppy moves out at 1,004fps from a 5" barrel with OAL of 1.245". Now I have an oversized firing pin stop with a slight bevel, 22# recoil spring and buffer to limit damage and I have used both the Starline 45+P and Super cases but regular 45 ACP cases should be fine also.

I have another 1911 - same make & model that will shoot bushel basket groups at 50 yards with that particular load and that is disappointing as hell.

Same powder and powder charge with a 230 grain bonded JHP (Gold Dot) moves out at 983 fps from a 5" barrel with OAL being 1.225", which is more than enough for most big game in the lower 48.

My son-in-law has a Glock SF21 and that particular pistol shoots about everything pretty well and handles the above loads with no problems in stock form. If you can handle that Glock trigger that's the platform I'd recommend for heavy, over the top loads, if you plan on practicing a lot with those hot loads.

[35remington]

It's essentially a fool's errand running extra heavy springs in a 1911.......and with heavy loads as mentioned the forward impact on the barrel lug feet is worrisome with said heavy springs that are thought necessary for heavy loads.

Way better is to run a small radius firing pin stop with a lighter spring. Far better tendency for reliable function than the extreme downside a heavy recoil spring has attendant with its use, as the downsides are literally multiple. The small radius stop gives frame buffering equivalent to a heavy spring and does not challenge the gun to function correctly.

The heaviest impact the 1911 sees is the moment of firing when the lugs are slammed into engagement. The G forces found with this event are four times that of slide/frame impact. Stress risers are the sharp corners around the breechface area. Everyone is so worried about slide/frame impact that this important consideration is forgotten. The heavy spring "cure" for slide frame impact is as bad as the affliction.

Any 1911 should also be examined for depth of lug engagement if heavy loads are contemplated. A forged slide, frame and barrel may also be advisable in a gun of newer make.

[35remington]

300, the slide starts to move rearward as soon as the bullet goes forward, but unlocking of the barrel cannot happen until the bullet leaves the barrel.

[longbow]

ole 5 hole group:

If you are getting a 265 gr. boolit up to ~ 1000 FPS, that is about exactly what my friend is looking for. Good stuff!

My plan is to collect as much info as I can, sift through it all, make any recommended alterations to the gun then start at +P levels and slowly work up.

If you are already there using VV N350 that is what I want to know.

Again we are not looking to shoot a steady diet of these, just enough to work up the defense load. Also, extreme accuracy is also not really required. This is for up close and personal experiences with bears should he run into that situation. Distances would be measured in feet most likely so as long as the groups are measured in inches they should be fine.

Thanks,
Longbow

[Fluxed]

You're going to break something.
The 1911 is a lot of wonderful things but its not magic.

[BCRider]

Longbow, this may prove to be fun to play with but the last guy I know of that got a wilderness ATC up this way said that the CFO isn't interested in discussing anything other than revolvers in .44Mag or bigger for approval. So your buddy's idea of getting his hot rodded 1911 approved is a non-starter.

[Deep Six]

I load a 255 RNFP (Lee and others) on top of a little more than 5 gr Unique with OAL about 1.220 (max length I can get to feed reliable due to my Colt XSE's tight throat). I worked up to these in my 1911 so don't assume they're fine in yours. These shoot reliably and are accurate with the stock Colt gun and springs. Never chrono'd them but I suspect somewhere about 750, maybe a little more. They are the stoutest load I'm willing to shoot out of MY Colt. I shot a string of 100 of them the other day and it resulted in the safety lever chewing through the skin at the base of my thumb, so they must be recoiling more than the standard 230 gr load. These work in several 1911s I've tried them in but wouldn't even chamber in my brother's XD. Never tried them in a glock. Also, the Lee 255 has a very short nose and wide meplat, and feeds less reliably than other 255 rnfp designs I've tried.

If I was going to try to maximize a load with such a boolit, I woud design a bullet of about 260 gr with a tangential bore-rider nose (bore ride length of zero, just a step) with a meplat of about 70% with a nose length set up for an OAL of 1.260. The long nose bore ride design will allow that heavy boolit to be seated at max OAL without hitting the rifling before going into battery. This will maximize powder capacity in the case. The 70% meplat should be a good compromise between reliable feeding and terminal ballistics.

I know my load isn't the power level you were looking for, but's it is my experience with heavy 45 loads in a stock gun. Honestly, your friend really just needs to spend $500 on a Ruger single action and learn how to shoot it. They're not hard to learn at all and offer the power level he wants plus a whole bunch more even in stock form.

[ole 5 hole group]

Buffalo Bore puts out a 255 grain cast that moves along at 950 to 975 fps from a 5" barrel and I believe the website states no modifications necessary for that particular load but doesn't recommend a steady diet without modifications.

Here's an internet load that I haven't tried but allegedly a Beartooth 255 gr WFN bullet using 7.0 grains of AA No. 5 powder with WLP primer will get you 950/975 fps from a 5" 1911.

My 1911's came standard with 18.5# recoil springs and once you start getting much past 900fps with 255/265 grain cast bullets that slide comes back with a little more authority and your brass will sail off pretty good - installing an oversized firing pin stop with either a flat base or a very slight bevel should slow down the slide coming back but I really couldn't tell any difference by eyeballing how far the brass flew, so I added a little more recoil spring weight to settle things down a little.

20# recoil spring helped some with the flying cases but I settled on 22#'s for that 265 grain load and I have noticed no abuse on the hard hat treatment, so I feel all is well there. On the other 1911, I have it ion-bonded, and when I went past 1004fps with the 265 grain, I did notice abuse to the slide locking lug area in 2 locations on the 1st lug - that was with 8.5 grains of VV N350 with a velocity of 1,061fps. I haven't went back with that load in either pistol, as it's too hot for my liking. The Glock 21 took the 8.5 grain load in stride but accuracy was terrible.

[jmsj]

Longbow,
Been a while since I posted. I read your post and dug up an old post I did awhile back.
07-06-2013, 02:02 PM #20

makicjf,
I have tuned a gun similar to what you are looking for. I have posted in the past about a Taurus PT1911 that I couldn't get decent groups out of until I tried heavier bullets (Lee .452-255-RF). You can search the old posts regarding using similar bullets in the 1911 platform. I now use this as my hiking pistol. I find it much more comfortable to carry a 1911 than the Vaquero or 629 I use to use when carrying a full pack (up to 40#). For me I found that I was more willing to carry a gun when it wasn't getting in the way. I also found it more convenient to carry a spare clip than a speed loader or loose ammo.
I do use the flat bottom firing pin stop, 25# mainspring and an 18.5# recoil spring. The flat bottom firing pin stop takes away the mechanical advantage of the factory large radius firing pin stop. The flat or small radius firing pin stop was JMB's original design for this part. Without the mechanical advantage of the larger radius more energy from the slide cycling has to be used to cock the hammer back thus slowing down the slide velocity. I also use a heavier than stock mainspring to add more resistance to the slide coming back.
Even though this helps quite a bit, remember that there is still more energy in the heavy loads and the safety limits are still the same. Loading heavier than normal does come with some special considerations. Remember that heavier bullets take up more air space in the case.
Only time will tell how this set up holds up. I have probably fired a thousand rounds out of this set up with no problems or noticeable wear. But remember every gun is unique and not all may like this set up.
Good luck, jmsj

I continued working on this load and settled on 5.8 grains of Unique (875-900 fps.IIRC). This was the highest level at which I could still get off well aimed shots on target at a reasonable rate. I went up to 6.0 grains but my accuracy/speed suffered. I felt that the 5.8 grain Unique loads would be sufficient for the 300# class bears and mountain lions we normally encounter around here. I don't know if this fits your situation.
I really like the flat bottom or small radius firing pin stop in my 1911's except for very light shooting BE guns. These types of firing pin stops are available from EGW, Harrison Design and Fusion. I have used all three and they all work well. The Fusion is probably the easiest to fit. The Harrison and EGW are oversized quite a bit. The flat/small radius firing pin stop combined with a 25# mainspring really seems to make a big difference.
In my mind this is about as stout as I am willing to go in a standard 1911 platform. At 6.0 grains, I could start to feel the slide bottoming out hard against the frame. I tried shok-buffs but they got chewed up very quickly. I tried heavier springs but when the gun slammed back into battery the extra force going forward pulled the gun off track too much. This also concerned me about the amount of force being applied to the slide stop/barrel feet. I have done some research on the 45 Super and I have some reservations but that's just me. Someone else suggested going up 460 Rowland and this is the conclusion I came up with also. From my understanding the compensator helps keep the muzzle rise down and the weight of the compensator keeps the slide and barrel from unlocking until the chamber pressure drops a some. As a plus the Rowland has higher velocity/energy gains over the 45 Super.
Currently I have to finish up a 1911 Officer's Model for myself, a 1911 CCO for my daughter but the next project for me is going to be a 1911 in 460 Rowland.
Take care, jmsj

[35remington]

If you'd get off the heavy bullet idea, there's really little the 255/265 grain bullets can do, penetration wise, that the 230's cannot essentially equal. Here more weight is traded for greater velocity and lower pressures in so doing.

I invite you to do some penetration tests as I have. The most valid conclusion is that 25 grains of additional bullet weight has no particular merit. If penetration is such a concern that 25 additional grains is thought beneficial, a revision of thinking is necessary. Further, if 230 grains is inadequate in penetration, so is 255 or 265.

[35remington]

"From my understanding the compensator helps keep the muzzle rise down and the weight of the compensator keeps the slide and barrel from unlocking until the chamber pressure drops a some."

Well, no.

The purpose of the compensator is to allow the escaping gasses to slow the rearward slide velocity by striking the flat surfaces of the compensator on bullet exit. At this point slide and barrel are still joined but are moving rearward together, so striking gasses slow both. The weight of the compensator also adds to the mass of combined barrel and slide and slows rearward slide velocity due to the heavier weight compared to a noncompensated barrel.

But here's the important distinction.

Whether a compensator is present or not, it cannot prevent the gun from "unlocking early" because early unlocking is never, ever the problem with an uncompensated barrel. Slide velocity is the problem. There is one time and one time only the barrel and slide unlock in an uncompensated barrel......when the bullet exits. Unlocking only occurs when the bullet is gone and the pressure is low, compensated barrel or not.

It is physically impossible for the slide and barrel to unlock until after the bullet has left the barrel, whether a compensator is present or not.

The barrel cannot unlock when the pressure is high.....only when said pressure is gone. Compensated or not.

[longbow]

Again, thanks to everyone for responses. Lots to read and absorb.

35remington:

My plan is to start at heavy loads then work up to +P using both 230 gr. boolits and the 250's he bought. I do plan to do comparative penetration testing as we go as well. We'll see what happens from there.

In all honesty, I am a heavy bullet kinda guy and I am betting the the heavy boolits at moderate velocities will do what he wants without venturing into high pressure territory. In fact a fellow just sent me an article about that very thing.

What I would like to find out, and may even get to test it out while we work on this, is why Armco went with a 200 gr. boolit at "hyper" velocity when heavy bullet loads at moderate velocity have already been proven for good penetration. Possibly that light boolit at hyper velocity is better but I am doubting it. I certainly am not finding heavy boolit data (even 230 gr.) for the .45-08 though. There are lots of 250 to 265 gr. loads for .45 Super though.

I certainly won't disagree that a 250 gr. boolit would offer much if any more than a 230 gr. The difference is quite small. Now when comparing the 250 gr. to 200 gr. it is a little different. Testing will tell the tale I hope.

BCRider:

Not a problem. He already has his carry permit for the 1911 in .45 ACP. Besides which, I don't think the CFO gets to decide what handgun you carry or what caliber, only whether you get the permit or not. My friend has a free miner's license so they basically have to give him a carry permit unless there is good reason (criminal record or other serious issue) not to. I am not a handgun guy and have never applied for a carry permit so have no personal experience there but I cannot see how the CFO would have any say if what a guy carries.

No matter what you or I think though as he already has the permit so that is done.

Thanks all for the input.

Longbow

[robertbank]

Lots of opinions some of which are backed by experience. Gunner up in Pr. George developed the 45-08 cartridge some years ago for guides to use in their 1911's for short range bear protection. You use a 22# recoil spring and .308 cases shortened and reamed out to .452 down to the webbing. The .45acp barrels will certainly take the pressure but regular .45acp cases won't so don't use the following load in .45acp cases. Cases most be reamed out to allow the bullet to seat. I should add Gunnar C. has been an accomplished gunsmith for years - his company is Armco Plating out of Pr. George, BC. Longbow and BC Rider are both familiar with Gunnar I am sure.

The load he gave me and one in which I have used in my Norinco 1911 with a 22# spring is:

10.5 gr of Longshot under 200gr LSWC cast hard - Vel 1,299 fps

He recommended the use of the 200 gr LSWC for penetration plus the sharp shoulders will cut blood vessels rather than push them aside, something RN bullets tend to do. Personally I wouldn't go with the RN bullets. In the 1911 .45acp mode they have a rather dismal one shot stop stat despite all the hype. You can run the Longshot load a little higher but I haven't so no comment. The load has been effective on Black Bears I am told. Recoil is similar to a 357mag.

The advantage of the 1911 over a heavy revolver is capacity, reload time, and ease of carry and draw. Having a large revolver that is difficult to draw quickly won't do you much good if you run into a bear at close quarters.

I had a Wilderness permit a few years back and carried the 1911.

Take Care

Bob