Any electricians out there, ground fault ?

[Buckshot]

.............My house was built in 1951. Wiring is 2 conductor, hot and neutral. I did a remodel in a bedroom and turned it into a master bath and dressing area for a master bedroom addition we'll be doing later.

Since there was to be an outlet over the new vanity I installed a ground fault interupt outlet to meet code. It is wired off the existing black/white 2 conductor with 12-2 romex. As there is no ground connection with the existing wire, it's not connected.

The ground wire is connected to the light switch next to the GFI, and then runs up to a light fixture. The inspector didn't seem to really know what he was doing, or struck me as being a bit nervous. I failed the final inspection because the inspector said the ground was 'open'. He'd stuck a small plug type tester into the GFI and only one light lit.

He had to hold it up and stare at it to see what that one light represented. That's when he said 'open' ground. I felt like saying,"Of course it's open as it isn't hooked to anything", and explained about the 2 wire system. I pressed the test button on the GFI and it tripped. He wasn't moved

Guestion is, is it okay the way it is or if not what do I need to do?

...............BUckshot

[Pepe Ray]

Your about as safe as you are with a firearm w/o a safety.
The problem (difference?) is that in your electrical system you are NOT the only creature handling it. Not only are there other humans (children?) using your juice but also uninvited things like mice.
Your in a very old house. I can't tell how your building was constructed so I can only say that I redid mine. Replaced all wires as I remodeled over the years. Never had enough outlets till then. Also, looking at the future, my outlets are waist high or more.
Depending on the government represented by the inspector, you'll probably hear from him/them w/i 30 days. Good luck.
Pepe Ray

[S.R.Custom]

Safetywise, you're good to go... (See number 3 of the text here)

http://www.icgov.org/housing/documents/wiringalts.pdf



HOWEVER: Legally, you're kinda screwed. According to code, any new electrical work done has to be done to current code. In other words, you should have run 12/2 with ground so as to provide a ground back to the service panel. If you don't have a ground at the service panel, it's conceivable you could be made to update the service as well.

But wait, there's more. Check your PMs.

[monadnock#5]

A guy I know had to attend a class on electrical safety for the phone co. When the classroom was full the instructor walked up to the desk, and picked up a coiled drop light. He plugged it in and turned the light on, and then very gingerly lowered the lamp into an aquarium filled with water. During the the class the instructor never once spoke of , or made reference to the lamp. Never once did the lamp flicker, waver or go out. It went right on shining as cheerily as it would have in clear air. And this was a grounded outlet, although not GFI.

[woodman51jfk]

Without doing a complete re-wire, the only way to achieve the desired results of a GFCI ( safety and inspection wise ) would be to run a single, stranded 12ga, home run to the neutral bar in your load center from the recep. I have seen green tags on remodels where the 3rd wire ground for the addition was a copper grounding rod driven to 6 - 8 ft. deep & 4ga ground lead clamped on...........even on some old knob & post wired homes that got passed, as long as local ordinances don't supersede NEC.
Never embarrass or insult the inspector..........even if you're right.......you'll never be right.........
Hope this helps &
Have A Safe & Happy Thanksgiving,
To You & Yours.............and all on the forum,
John

[scrapcan]

You might want to check to see if you can bond to common. This lets you have ground and common and you would only have to run a new strand to you new electrical work. I am not an electrician so maybe someone else can explain this further to see if it will help you solve the problem.

[garandsrus]

Buckshot,

I'm also not an electrician, and I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn last night, but...

I put an addition on my kitchen and did the electrical work, which all passed inspection. I was surprised and amazed that in my breaker box the neutral and ground come to the exact same bar! In effect, there is no difference between neutral and ground wires. Either one would complete the neutral side of a circuit. With that in mind, here are three options:

1) Tie two pigtails to the neutral wire in the box with a wire nut. Run one to the neutral on the GFI outlet and the other to the ground on the GFI outlet. You could tie the light into this also.

2) Do the equivalent by running a pigtail from the GFI neutral (the one that was taped over when you bought the outlet) to the ground. I'm not sure about this one, but think it would work.

3) Do you need to run the wire through metallic conduit? If so, the conduit is probably grounded already. That's the way a house was done in Chicago that I renovated. In this case, attach the neutral wire from the metal outlet box to the ground on the GFI.

I don't know if #1 or #2 would meet code (number #3 would) but either one should make the lights work correctly on the tester. You can pick up an outlet tester that can also test GFI plugs for about $10 at Home Depot, Lowes, etc. There are two types of testers, one that will test standard outlets and also test GFI and one that will only test standard outlets, so make sure you get the right one.

I would also suggest always running wire with a ground for any remodeling you are doing. This could save you considerable time and trouble down the road if you decide to update the old wiring to include a ground.

John

[Lloyd Smale]

Heres my take on it. FIrst you have to go by your local code. Ours demands a seperate ground rod for the neutral . A gfis purpose is to trip instantaniously and connected to the common ground bar in you system it might not. Electricity goes to ground at the point of least reisisntance and connected to the common bar it is relying on the electical companys entire ground systme and that contains many miles of wire. It also relys on your home ground but in an older house that might not be that good. Our codes demand two ground rods drove and the ground rods must be 16 feet (two 8 foot rods connected together) and connected to the ground bar not the common bar. Doing that you get a faster path to ground with the least ammount of resistance. That way if your power companys neutral happens to open (which does happen) your gfi will still work. A gfi wired to your common bar is no different then a common breaker.

[garandsrus]

Lloyd,

I expected to find what you described, a separate ground and neutral bar, but as I said, I have one bar with both types of wire connected to it.

I do have ground bars connected to the common/neutral bar, so the entire house is grounded with or without a ground supplied by the power company. When I had my service moved (due to the remodel), they drove new ground rods. They also connected a ground to the city water system by the meter.

I have tested my GFI outlets and they trip as they are supposed to.
John

[powderburnerr]

the test feature is a mechanical switch , you need to test it with a power load , if it trips then you should be able to pass code , ,,I dont think the unit will trip electricallly with an open ground......Dean

[woodman51jfk]

..........what ya got here is many ways of saying the same thing..........tying the GFCI tag end to the neutral run WILL show as a good ground for inspection purposes, ( NEC prohibits junctions inside load centers ) but WILL NOT give the GFCI the desired home ground run required by code ( if the inspector asks you to pull the face plate...you're busted ). A third wire run to the load center, or if local code permits, run to a ground rod, will be the only way to achieve the two results you want....safety for the family & passing the electrical inspection.
I should have stated earlier that I have held a NEC journeyman license, and work in the building trades as a profession.

[scrapcan]

Woodman51jfk is the go to at this point. He is our resident expert to date. You must also be aware of which NEC code your local regulatory agency runs under. Where I live we are a few behind the current.

[jjamna]

I am a card carrying electrician and I don't give any advise without seeing the installation myself. I wish others would do the same. You are dealing with a very dangerous situation when you mess with electricty. PLEASE BE CAREFUL PEOPLE

[hivoltfl]

woodman51jfk is correct, I am the AHJ, (Authority Having Jurisdiction) in DMS owned State buildings here in Florida, I think everyone needs to keep in mind the difference between a neutral and a ground, a neutral or common is a current carrying conductor that completes the circuit so current will flow and a light bulb or other device will operate, a GROUND is a safety wire that prevents current or voltage from going where it can cause injury or death.
The Nec states the neutral shall be bonded to the ground at one location usually in the service panel, without going into the NEC and boring everyone half to death if you want your house as safe as possible its time to consider a rewire and bring it up to local codes, been in this business 41 years now and the codes today are much changed from when your house was wired.

[montana_charlie]

I haven't figured out (from reading) why you installed a GFI outlet. Was it just because it is located near a faucet?

What kind of pipe services that faucet?

A metal cold water pipe has been 'the system ground' in some older electrical code editions...in houses where all of the pipe was metal.
But, if any plastic pipe has been added since 1951, you would need to know where.
CM

[targetshootr]

Around here in an older house if you do work on a two-wire outlet in a bath or kitchen or outside you have to go back with a GFI outlet. And since the only way to get a proper ground is to run a new wire to the service panel, they don't require us to do it so far. I think part of the reason is the cost to the homeowner would be prohibitive and a GFI will work with or without a grounding conductor. But your mileage may vary depending on the jurisdiction having authority. The sad fact is, most inspectors are electricians who couldn't make in business in the first place.

[targetshootr]

I should change one thing, inspectors couldn't care less about the cost to homeowners or anyone else for that matter. It would be a good idea to check with his supervisor or you could spend a lot of money you don't have to.

[waksupi]

Inspectors are curious animals. When I was building my cabin back in 1986, I had all the wiring in place, walls open for inspection. The inspector showed up, looked around, and said, "Well, it looks like you know what you are doing. Call me when you have the interior enclosed, and I will do the final inspection."
So, I called him a month or so later, and he said he would be back to inspect it.
I'm still waiting. 21 years. Never have seen the guy again!

[targetshootr]

That's a fact. I could spend a week telling stories about inspectors.

[Blackhawk Convertable]

Last year my wife's electric frying pan cord with the potentiometer fried BAD! Completely melted and smoked up the kitchen. Guess what? It never tripped the GFCI. And yes, everything is wired correctly.

Nice to have them. Hope they work. The latest that we are hearing about them protecting is, maybe, maybe not. Doesn't hurt any to have them. But I'm not going to take a bath and "test" the GFCI by dropping a toaster in with me.