FIRST LOADS the NOE .626 H.P. FULL BORE (TO STACK OR NOT TO STACK)

[rhouser]

I am building my first loads with a cast 410 gr .626 hollow point (noe). I cast it fairly soft and will shoot as cast. With powder coat it is measuring closer to .6272 (micrometer). I will use 2 3/4" factory primed Cheddite hulls from BPI for all the tests. Gun is Savage 220 stainless with 3-9 Leupold slug scope.

I have selected 24.0 gr. of PRO REACH as the starting load. I basically dropped 3 gr from the load furnished by SlugsRUs with my hammer head order. Alliant shows no use above 7/8 oz so no help there.

I am roll crimping all, but, have 3 different stacks to start.

1. 1 bpi brush wad + 3/8" 28 felt + 1/4" fiber wad + .626 noe + 20 ga overshot card + roll crimp

2. 1 bpi brush wad + 3/8" 28 felt + 1/2" fiber wad + .626 noe + roll crimp

3. 1 bpi compact gas seal + 1/8" 28 ga cork wad + (2) 1/2" fiber wad + 1/4" fiber wad + .626 noe + roll crimp.

Loads 1 and 2 are based with a flexible wad but with fiber wads of different lengths. These should have a low felt recoil as compared to 3.

Load 3 is a hard stack the whole way, but, with a modern gas wad on the powder. The BPI compact gas seal (PT20GS) is a very tight seal in the Cheddite hulls with 0 powder migration. I do have a full 1 1/4" fiber wad stack in the shell. That's a lot of paper.

I will shoot these later today or tomorrow to see how they go.

Anybody see any issues or dangers? Opinions welcome.

thanks rch

[cpileri]

did you base these loads on any published loads?

[rhouser]

BPI lists 24 gr PRO Reach for the 7/8 oz Thug slug in a 2 3/4" hull. It has 26 gr for the 3". SPW is recommending 27 gr of PRO Reach for the 20 ga Hammer head. I have nothing specific on the BW20 but went through the BPI manual for 20 ga and every load that used the BW20 came in at lower pressure than any other wad with the same load.

I am pretty much flying blind with the stack. I built it so it fit. I have a full inch and a quarter of paper on the load with a cork cushion to fill the top of the gas seal.

Cpileri, given the number of your posts I have read while prepping for this load, I want to ask if you see a problem. I have only loaded 6 of these (2 each). I can do a cut shell recovery and lose nothing. I do not have a lot of experience with the PRO REACH. I only recently acquired an 8lb jug. I thought about just going with 14gr of Green Dot and adjusting the height as needed.

Any obvious bad guesses?

thanks rch

[bikerbeans]

I have zero experience with Pro Reach but you are using a stout bolt gun. Based on the published data you have cited I personally wouldn't have a problem testing your loads.

FWIW, when I fly "blind" loading slugs I start very low an just make sure I take to the range the tools I need to deal with a squib.

BB

[OnHoPr]

did you base these loads on any published loads?

THERE IS THE MAGIC QUESTION, so often asked in these slug shooting threads that probably shut down the major experimental slug slinging posters and why this development has dwindled. Most of these slug reloaders spent hours searching data as well as going over data of their own. Each individual has more than likely different data than the next individual. Data goes back over a half a century. Look at Hogtamer's recent thread using the good ole Uniwads. There wasn't any PUBLISHED data about that load. Or, do you mean copy a published data load. There are a google worth of ways to load a whatever kind of slug with all the components available along with the different styles of slug guns nowadays which can handle more than 10,000 LUPs. You know since I started getting into this slug slinging hobby/sport I haven't heard of one slug shooter blowing up their gun. But, for the last 5 years I have seen plenty of clays shooters posting threads about what happened on the clays range with this gun or that gun all year long. Every time one of these slug slingers post whatever load and if it wasn't published copied data some holy grail reloading book came out from somebody else's shelf to disparage the slug slinger's load. Now, I can see if somebody had an Iver Johnson and was putting 50 gr of Red Dot in a 2.75" hull with a 600 gr full bore that someone should say something about it. But, if something is within at least feasible reason I don't think the holy grail published data fear mongering card should be played. Especially when I have been reading that same type of data for half a century and have seen alls kinds of published data misprints.

[longbow]

OnHoPr:

You missed my post about blowing up my Remington single shot shotgun with a slug then. I posted it so others may not make the same mistake.

I used a Lyman reloading manual load as a basis but subbed primer and made a short hull to eliminate the tall column of stacked wads under a Lyman Foster slug. I also filled the hollow cavity as I had experienced problems with wads blowing into the cavity and in one case, right through the slug. In this instance I used correct hull make and type, and powder charge but subbed primer and used a short hull of 2 1/2" or possibly 2 1/4" in a 3" chamber.

I pulled the trigger on the first load and the gun came apart in my hands! I was lucky and on had a few minor scratches but lost some hearing in my right ear. The entire top of the chamber parted company with the barrel.

I wish I had kept the barrel for example but wound up tossing it when we moved up North. In any case, the slug had filled the chamber right at the case mouth and I have to think that with the cavity filled it didn't squeeze down easily when it hit the forcing cone. There was lead smears right through the forcing cone and into the bore. The primer may have raised pressure too but I am convinced after seeing the lead smears in the chamber and through the forcing cone that the slug swole up and caused a pressure spike when it hit the forcing cone.

In any case, the gun blew up. I have been quite particular of researching and double checking loads and being very careful of substitutions these days.

Longbow

[cpileri]

Can you post up the loads exactly w primer and hull and crimp to we can compare them to your loads? it will be much easier to compare them that way.

C-

QUOTE=rhouser;3832387]BPI lists 24 gr PRO Reach for the 7/8 oz Thug slug in a 2 3/4" hull. It has 26 gr for the 3". SPW is recommending 27 gr of PRO Reach for the 20 ga Hammer head. I have nothing specific on the BW20 but went through the BPI manual for 20 ga and every load that used the BW20 came in at lower pressure than any other wad with the same load.

I am pretty much flying blind with the stack. I built it so it fit. I have a full inch and a quarter of paper on the load with a cork cushion to fill the top of the gas seal.

Cpileri, given the number of your posts I have read while prepping for this load, I want to ask if you see a problem. I have only loaded 6 of these (2 each). I can do a cut shell recovery and lose nothing. I do not have a lot of experience with the PRO REACH. I only recently acquired an 8lb jug. I thought about just going with 14gr of Green Dot and adjusting the height as needed.

Any obvious bad guesses?

thanks rch[/QUOTE]

[rhouser]

I cut the shells and went back through all the pro reach loads I could find. 18.2 grains was the lowest published load I could find for pro-reach. I dropped the .2 and am going to reload my start with 18.0 gr. I will take my squib rod and plastic mallet with me to the range (biker beans).

Cpileri: I am not dodging the listing of my exact loads. I will just come back and do it in a bit. The Chief of Staff just gave me an "immediate" honey do.

I'll be back.

rch

[cpileri]

totally understand! totally

[OnHoPr]

Just for the heck of it, starting a little lower and working up is good. But, sometimes things might happen. For instance, take Steel powder, if you go to low of a charge and don't have enough of a load and stiff enough wad column you can get a piff/boom. With a little less stronger gun design this could be dangerous as well. Like 2nd ignitions in large capacity metallic cases in the belted magnum variety and going to low of a charge with slow powder. Pro Reach is right in there with that group of BD, Steel, LS, 410, HS7 and such, so that in another consideration to add to your thoughts. Depending on the projectile weight and the column along with the hull design slow powders can do this piff/boom stuff. Just for another example, I use to load published loads with BD in a 12 ga hull under a WAA12R wad filled with 1.5 oz of 5s for duck hunting back in the 70s. If it got in the 20s degrees half my shells would go pooof when ducks were cupped. Now, look at Longbow, he uses BD religiously in cold weather and never seems to have a problem loading his slugs. But, he may be using stiffer wad columns to prevent those poooofs. Just from a quick look I don't really see a problem with any of the loads that you have stated with the firearm that you are using.

With the first load there are different opinions with using a OS card on top of a slug because of possible bulging of the barrel if the card goes to the side going down the bore pinching in between the bore and slug.

The third load I am *** u me ing (dont want to make an a$$ out of you and me) that this load will give you the highest PSIs of the three loads IMO. But, still should be fine in that weapon.

[longbow]

Yes, I have heard a lot of bad press on BD in cold weather but so far have not experienced that myself but then I am also using hard card wad columns for most loads using BD as well so that may be part of the success. In fact so far of the powders I have tried (limited selection here) I still like Blue Dot best.

It wasn't a Blue Dot load that blew up the gun, it was a PB load from the Lyman manual so much faster powder.

Can't help with what the OP is asking though.

Longbow

[rhouser]

Went to the range yesterday and still have my fingers and nose. I have to admit to using the "widow maker" hold on the first round. I did get some interesting findings.

First, the 18gr Pro Reach was fine in all the loads. Positive firing with consistent and solid recoil.

My unfired primed Cheddite shells mic at .6950", the largest of the fired shells mic at .6995". This is only .0005" case head expansion. While not a sure indicator, I do like to have something to look at.

Some observations:
Load #1. 1 bpi brush wad + 3/8" 28 ga felt to fill top of wad cup + 1/4" fiber wad + .626 noe + 20 ga overshot card + roll crimp

Load #2. 1 bpi brush wad + 3/8" 28 ga felt to fill top of wad cup + 1/2" fiber wad + .626 noe + roll crimp

I will no longer use the overshot card. I had one of the load #1 rounds recoil noticeably more than the other two. I think the card got trapped between the slug and the barrel as per above discussion. Same decision will hold for the hard-stack load.

Discussion on the straight gas seal hard-stack:

Load #3. 1 bpi compact gas seal + 1/8" 28 ga cork wad + (2) 1/2" fiber wad + 1/4" fiber wad + .626 noe + roll crimp.

This shot ok, no issues, but, I really like the "push" feeling in load #1 and #2 built around the BPI 20ga brush wad. I will need to use a chronograph to see if there is a significant loss or gain, but, I am going to do some more development based on load #2 above.

Other really neat stuff:
LEE 575 round ball load: 1 compact gas seal + 1/8" 28 ga mini nitro to fill the top of the gas seal + 1/4" fiber wad + 1 BPI commander with 1/8" 28ga nitro card to seal the gas base + 1/4" 28ga felt wad in the wad cup + .575 lee RB + roll crimp over 18gr Pro Reach. I only loaded 3 and shot them at 25 yards off my bipod. Two balls went into one hole and the third clover leafed by half it's diameter into the first hole. I had this target hardbacked by butcher paper and then 1/8" cardboard so I Did Confirm the 2 ball one hole shot lapped in the hard board by about 1/16". This load fit Perfectly in the Commander Wad (020TC20). It could not have been a better fit. I am going to load a couple of dozen of these and see how they fly at 50 and maybe even 75. I wish I had built more.

The Lee 58 Modern Minie: 1 cgc + 1/8" 28 ga mini nitro + 1/4" fiber wad + BPI commander + .07" 28ga nitro card in the wad cup + 58 cal modern minie ball. Also a perfect fit in the BPI commander. I only had two and used the same charge. Recoil was noticeably higher, but, the minie's are weighing 454 gr as cast. At 25 yards these two hit 2 inches apart which was disappointing. I am going to have to load this again because I did a major change in shooting position between the two shots and my scope has no parallax adjustment. Many question the minie due to the risk of skirt collapse. Again, I used 18 gr of Pro Reach. No ill signs, nice firm recoil About like a standard 7/8 oz 20 ga factory load when using the minie. The round ball is a low recoil joy to shoot.

This is the outcome with 18 gr of Pro Reach into a factory primed unfired Cheddite high brass hull. It's a little long.

thanks to all. rch

[longbow]

One other comment...

It is prudent to reduce the charge a bit if you are replacing a cushion leg wad with a solid wad column. The cushion leg collapses at ignition resulting in a larger volume for the gases to fill initially. With the hard card wad column you have effectively less volume which should generate higher pressure.

None of that is "concrete" but if you look through loading manuals and compare loads and take a look at BPI's short hull loads with no cushion legs it appears that less powder with solid wad column produces similar pressures to more of the same powder but with a cushion leg.

Not sure if Tom Armbrust or anyone else has run pressure tests but I am a bit wary of that substitution without dropping the charge some. I think there is more effect with fast powders than slow powders but again my opinion based on recoil (and maybe sticky extraction) and comparing in recipes loading manuals.

[rhouser]

Thanks Longbow, but, I was wary of going below the 18 gr of Power Reach that I started with. It was the lowest published charge out there for 20 ga. I did notice the recoil difference between the plastic wad build and the hard stack.

I will keep 18.0 grains of Pro Reach for the round ball and put the chronograph to work for the rest.

Great round ball load. rch