Ideal & Lyman Mold Markings

[bhn22]

Ideal and Lyman molds have had their markings changed many,many times over the ages. Does anybody know of any research material that might show the evolution of markings over the years? I'm trying to date a few old Ideals and the old manuals aren't helping, mostly because the old stuff used drawings instead of pictures, and the drawings aren't very detailed. Failing that, I suppose we could post pics of our mold markings and try to sort this out, However, it would be a monstrous task.

[Mk42gunner]

There is a chapter in "From Ingot to Target" that deals with dating the Ideal and Lyman moulds. Whether it has the info you want, I don't know.

Robert

[bhn22]

I'm afraid it was no help at all. I did go on ebay to look for Ideal molds with the same address markings. No joy there either. Well, I did find one, but it was an old one piece mold. I did ask Glen, but he's not familiar with the markings either. Lyman is no help at all of course. There has to be an answer somewhere.

[Bent Ramrod]

The Lyman Gun Sight Co. bought the Ideal Reloading Tool Company in 1925. The address on the moulds and tools changed from New Haven, CT to Middlefield CT at this time. I think Lyman continued to use the IDEAL stamping on the moulds until the early 1960's, when they replaced it with LYMAN.

You could probably get a more precise answer on the Antique Reloading Tool Collectors' web site.

[bhn22]

I've spent a bit of time there. All we've been able to come up with is that it's likely a first transitional model, and is likely one of the earliest molds with detachable handles. Lymans actual records are pretty vague as to exactly when certain changes were made. Brian Pearces article in the latest handloader shows a mold that is one of the earliest Keith molds known to exist (#2). His mold has the later style production markings than mine does. I was okay until I saw the pics of his prototype, now my mold is simply driving me nuts! Our bullet profiles seem identical, except that mine is a hollowbase and his is a solid. I wish there was some way to trace my molds history, but it came out of an estate sale in Idaho earlier this year.

[Catshooter]

Post some pics.


Cat

[GLL]

Is your mold an IDEAL 358431 HB?

Photos of the mold and bullets ?

Jerry

[williamwaco]

See if this helps:

http://reloadingtips.com/pages/lyman-mold-reference.htm

[GLL]

Here are the markings on my IDEAL 358431 HB.
Buckshot replaced the missing HB pin !







Jerry

[bhn22]

It's hard to see in the pics, but in the address line, it shows the "CT" being different than on the other molds of the era I've seen. it does have the capital "C", but the letter "T" is smaller, and there's an "equal" sign underneath it. It amazes me that this tiny detail is driving me so batty.

Attachment 88055Attachment 88056Attachment 88057Attachment 88058

[GLL]

I have never seen an HB pin design like that on an IDEAL mold before. Interesting custom modification that is somewhat similar to the RCBS HB molds

Is the screw going through the bullet base and into the HB pin actually a sliding pin?

Jerry

[bhn22]

This is the first style hollowbase design, which was also carried over from the one-piece molds. The base pin is held in place with a long screw that allows the plug to move away from the mold block so the bullet casting can be released. "NoZombies" has a 32 cal version of the one-piece hollowbase mold, maybe he'll add a pic if he gets time. This is very similar to the Cramer style setup, and I honestly don't know which came first. I believe Modern Bond used a different setup entirely, as did Yankee.

[GLL]

I was curious since they drilled right through the "E 438" for the sliding pin.
Do you have a cavity photo of the HB pin slid all the way in to the "bullet release" position?

Were these molds just prototypes or did they go into production?
Have you ever seen literature showing this design?
Did the removable single-pin predate the sliding pin and the design was just an experiment?
I wonder why IDEAL changed to the removable single pin design since the sliding pin seems better to me?

Interesting problem ! Please keep us updated !

Jerry

[bhn22]

The removable pin with the wooden handle is the later version, and Lyman continued with it until they quit making these molds in the late '70s or early '80s. The sliding pin version like mine does have a drawback. If you look at the my pic of the mold cavity, you'll see a small shiney spot about 1/2 inch below the bullet base. This is caused by the pin itself getting caught at an angle when the blocks were closed. I've seen this issue before, and if steps aren't taken to prevent this, the pin will actually wear the blocks down in this area. If you understand that this is a potential issue, all you have to do is make certain the pin is fully seated in the mold half before you close the blocks. Problem averted! BTW, Ideal numbered both block halves, and the hollowbase pin the same way they did with the hollowpoint pins on that style of mold. That's what that "E438" is about. All my numbers match on this mold, as they should. The molds a true survivor from the olden days.

[bhn22]

Attachment 88149Attachment 88150Attachment 88151

[bhn22]

Attachment 88193

[NoZombies]

Sorry I'm a little late to the show here, but Bob is correct, I do have an early Ideal mold with a similar hollow base design. It is a very early mold, and was made before the numbering system was implemented. It is marked as being patented "Feby 10-91". I assume the patent is for the HB pin design, I'm not certain of that, but the other integral molds I have lack the patent info. The pin moves about 5/16" to allow release.




While the design is very similar to the early mold that I have, I suspect that Bob's mold is either a factory prototype that was made during a later production, or very good work by a machinist.

The Rorbacher and Yankee molds used a similar design, but had a wide flat base about 3/4" in diameter below the mold blocks that acted to stabilize the pin and prevent tipping. I believe it also added some thermal mass to the pin to make casting a little easier.

[bhn22]

Thanks Tony. That is easily the coolest one-piece mold I've ever seen. I hadn't considered that mine might be a prototype. I know the answers out there someplace.

[NoZombies]

Bob, Could you show us a picture of the top of the mold in question? Based on a closer examination of the photos, I'm assuming the handle screws attach through the top of the mold.

If that's the case then I retract my comment about the work of a machinist, it really could only be 1 of three things; Either a prototype, a very special custom order, or the work of a Lyman/ Ideal employee as a personal project. I make that statement based on the fact that the markings on the mold blocks are properly oriented compared to the mold cavity, and if the screw holes are from the top of the mold, then it essentially has to be a factory produced item in one form or another.

The reason I don't believe it's a transition from the design of the early mold I posted photos of is that it is simply too late a mold for that. The removable pin type molds started in the days of the integrals, and carried over into the separate blocks. The earliest removable pin molds used a friction fit for the pin, with the twist locking action being added later. Based on the address, the fact that it's a Keith design etc. it has to date from sometime no earlier than the late 20's. The removable plug molds had been in production for some time by then.

[bhn22]

It is indeed a nose pour mold, and the screws for the handles go in from the top. It does have the markings for 429422, so it was made after that cherry number had been standardized. The bullet design appears in the 1929 Ideal handbook, but I don't have access to any handbooks from 1927 to 1928. If I find them, my answer may be there.