help with creme of wheat

[duckndawg]

I'm curious and ignorant on this subject. I have read previous posts on this and still have questions. I'm loading 125gr. CB with 3.5 gr. of titegroup. In my vaqueros I do CAS shootin, Now to load this without pullin an oops and sh*t do I simply pour creme of wheat on top of the powder then seat bullet and shoot? Do you not want the COW compressed? How does the COW help clean out the leading in the barrel? Can anyone explain so my simple mind will understand?
Thanks

[Molly]

I'm curious and ignorant on this subject. I have read previous posts on this and still have questions. I'm loading 125gr. CB with 3.5 gr. of titegroup. In my vaqueros I do CAS shootin, Now to load this without pullin an oops and sh*t do I simply pour creme of wheat on top of the powder then seat bullet and shoot? Do you not want the COW compressed? How does the COW help clean out the leading in the barrel? Can anyone explain so my simple mind will understand?Thanks

Hi duckndawg,

As the person most responsible for the current interest in COW modified loads, I guess I'm the guy you need to talk to.

First of all, COW will result in higher pressures if added to a standard load. This is for two reasons: First, it increases the efective weight of the bullet by however much COW you add. Secondly, it prevents the escape of 'young gas' that normally reduces pressure somewhat by leaking past the bullet before it moves forward enough to seal the bore.

This is why COW should NEVER be just added to a high pressure load to stop leading. You hot load could quickly become a proof load, resulting in an increased potential for personal injury, higher insurance premiums and excessive vulgar language.

Instead, COW loads should be 'worked up' from light loads. They will work fine, and any increase in pressure will be compensated as you develop the load.

There are a couple of pecularities you should be aware of with COW modified ammo. First of all, it has been my experience that they are most accurate with plain bullets as they drop from the mold: Unlubricated and with no gas check. This seems to be true even at magnum rifle velocities. Sizing may be necessary to keep the neck diameter small enough to chamber rounds easily, and hurts nothing. Secondly, they seem to generally deliver somewhat inferior accuracy, compared to match loads. You aren't likely to set any accuracy records with them, but neither are you likely to miss a game animal either. They are generally good for 'minute of fence post' up to a couple of hundred yards.

As to how much to use, about all you need is 1 or 1.5 calibers of depth for the hottest loads that are safe to use. For example, a .30 caliber rifle should use starting loads of about 0.30 to 0.45 inches in depth. Yes, you CAN just fill the case, and that's just how some of my early loads were made. But I later found it didn't take anywhere near that much COW to stop the leading. Use a tuft of dacron or cotton to fill the case, and measure the COW with a dipper.

Cow seems to eliminate leading and fouling in two distinct ways:
1. It prevents young gas from reaching the soft lead bullet and etching lead from its edges, which then solders to the bore as leading.
2. The pressure of firing even light loads will compact the COW into an extremely hard wad behind the bullet, which seems to scrub the bore as it passes. (No, it's not hard enough to hurt the bore.) At any rate, COW loads leave the bore bright, clean and shiny, even after a full day of shooting.

Oh, that reminds me: Be SURE to leave a good rust preventing oil in the bore: It is DRY, and can rust quickly if the humidity is high.

HTH. Feel free to ask again if I've left something out.
Regards,
Molly

[HORNET]

Molly,
Just for clarification: you're using COW to fill the space between the Dacron and the boolit?? Same on rifle loads?

[waksupi]

I wouldn't waste my time putting COW into handgun cartridges. If you are having leading problems, you will be better off solving this through fit or lube.

[duckndawg]

I'm not having a leading issue. In the previous posts the talk of the COW removing the leading was intriguing to me. Now do you put some sort of overpowder card between the powder and COW?

[Molly]

Molly,
Just for clarification: you're using COW to fill the space between the Dacron and the boolit?? Same on rifle loads?

Ummm. Yes, but I've made the mistake of thinking we were talking apples and apples, not apples and oranges. Frankly, I have yet to load the first handgun round with COW, simply because (as observed above) it's too simple to correct any leading problems by changing lube or bullet fit - usually the fit. I don't see any reason it won't work here, but the only real place I see for COW in revolvers is with some older revolver designs that had cylinder mouths smaller than the bore.

With the caveat that my experience covers RIFLE loads only, yes, the order of assembly is as follows:
1. Size and deprime.
2. Reprime and bell
3. Powder
4. Dacron tuft. (This needn't be precice: I usually just visually estimate the right amount. Something like a largish kids marble is usually adequate to fill the case up to the bottom of the shoulder or the neck. Poke it down with a toothpick until you can add the COW.)
5. Cow, as measured with Lee dippers if you want to be precice, or just pour it in to fill the neck & shoulder to the top of the case mouth. It isn't particularly critical either, so long as the minimum amounts to prevent leading are used.
6. Cast boolit, set in place and seated as your rifle likes best.

Hope this helps. Please come back and post your results, paticularly if you are working up revolver loads. What caliber are you working with?
Molly

[VTDW]

The latest COW thread really got my interest. I do not have any leading problems with any of my guns...lucky me. BUT I did want to try it out. I posted what I planned to do and these good folks immediately told me what I was planning was unsafe and I pulled the boolits and started over as I trust the folks implicitly.

I just tried it in my bottleneck cases for my .308MX. I used a small Lee dipper (I don't recall the #) of H-4895 and the same amount by dipper of COW. This almost filled the case to the bottleneck. This was less than half my usual amount of H-4895. I seated the 6 boolits and let em rip. I noticed what little lead I had seen in the rifling before shooting these loads had disappeared. No high pressure indications were noted in the spent cases. When I looked at the cases after firing there was a bit/glob of COW at the bottleneck of each case that had hardened. I used a pick to pry it out. I also noticed that the pressure was up somewhat because the rifle did a decent muzzle flip. I was surprised by that so be as careful as you can be brother.

Dave

[Molly]

Dear VTDW,

I did much the same with my first COW loads, but once I discovered the benefits, I began to wonder just how much COW was necessary to do the job. I then loaded a series of rounds that let me fire three (or was it five?) shots at a time of constantly lower levels of COW, down to the point that it didn't fill the case any more. I got no leading with the lightest amount of COW.

So I loaded another series that used Dacron to fill the unused space and keep the COW under the boolit. Even 1/4 inch of COW would prevent leading with some pretty significant (for cast bullets) loads, and pressure signs just weren't there any more. So I started wondering just how hot I could load these things before the leading would reappear. I had to add just a little bit more COW, but I could develop magnum rifle velocities (CHRONOGRAPHED!) with no leading, no pressure signs, and good 'hunting' accuracy. Granted, it took a bit less powder than manuals gave as max, but I decided to stop right there. No, I wouldn't care to be more specific, because rifles are so individualistic. I only want folks to realize that a max load with a jacketed bullet will be excessive for a comparable COW load. But given that, COW loads are a load of fun.

Molly

[Scrounger]

Did the thought ever cross your mind to make a thin wafer of COW to put under the bullet? Some of us are so lazy.... It would be easier if it'd work.

[405]

Thanks for the excellent articulation on the finer points of using fillers and COW.
Well written, easy to understand, logical summary!

[VTDW]

Molly,

Thanks so much for the added insight.

Dave

[Wayne Smith]

Weigh the COW you use. Add this weight to boolit weight. Use starting loads for this combined weight as your boolit weight.

[VTDW]

Weigh the COW you use. Add this weight to boolit weight. Use starting loads for this combined weight as your boolit weight.

That sure as heck makes good sense to me. Will do and thanks.

Dave

[duckndawg]

Wayne that is a good idea! I never even thought of doing that.

[bearcove]

One thing to look for is the contents of your COW. Some contain salt and other things.

[LeadThrower]

...just check the "Leading vs. Cream of Wheat?" thread I started. There's tons of information there, and the thread approached 2000 views, so you know everyone with a thought on the subject saw it and had a chance to post. Special thanks to racepres and hotwheelz for their straightforward reports on practical application in a variety of calibers.

The good news is that the CoW in pistol loads clean every bit of lead from the bore to make load development a painless and solvent-free (and therefore inexpensive) process.

The thread: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=23767