Black powder and .577 or .577/450?

[The Goose]

I have been loading black powder cartridges for a few years now. About a year ago I got into Sniders and Martini Henry's. Initially everything that I read about loading black powder cartridges basically stated that you fill the case with powder to the base of the bullet with a slight compression. In the end I know that nothing is ever quite that simple for good performance, but that aside it begs a question for me. Both the .577 Snider and .577/450 are loaded at far less then capacity with a filler, such as carded wool, over the load. Yesterday as I dumped 70 grs of black powder into a Snider case it struck me how much more room there is left. Why is that? I know that there are a few other old rounds that are loaded similarly, but I don't load them or have any direct experience. Why were these two British calibers loaded that way? Looking at original data and specifications it is apparent they were designed that way. Given the fairly stout recoil, especially of the .577/450, I am not excited by the idea of dramatically increasing the load, but I am curious. I know that Bad *** Wallace on this forum loads some massive loads for his Martini actioned .577. Maybe he has some input. When it comes to reloading, especially for vintage firearms, I am not adventurous. I stick to manuals and conventional wisdom. So what would happen if one loaded a .577 to the max with black powder?

[fouronesix]

Excellent question! One I've asked myself for a long time. It'll be interesting to see what explanations show up.

This may represent what you're talking about. 45-70 on right for perspective.

[Nobade]

Might have something to do with those being military cartridges, and an important feature of a military rifle is to be able to keep shooting during battle. The wad stack and lubricant they carry goes a long way toward fouling control and keeping the bore clean for multiple shots.

-Nobade

[AkMike]

For more info about these look at the British Militaria forums.

[fouronesix]

I think the OP's point was WHY did the designers of those particular early military BP cartridges and rifles decide on such a huge amount of powder capacity (on what seems like an impractically large scale- especially in the 577-450) then turn around and load with filler? Was it because they discovered, after the fact, the design had too much powder capacity and that capacity really exceeded any need or efficiency or practicality? Or was it a design that was started (without a lot of practical testing/R&D) and it would have been inefficient or difficult to change production once begun and reduce the scale of both the cartridge and rifle? Or was it they were "stuck" on the basic head and body diameter of the 577 (Snider) then arbitrarily decided to simply lengthen and bottleneck the cartridge for the 45 cal slug- no matter the practicality?

Questions I've never heard answered to my satisfaction. The romantic mystic of those cartridges and rifle designs and where they were used during any number of military campaigns is well documented in history. The question is more about the "thinking" and engineering process and reasoning of the original designers.

[Bad Ass Wallace]

If you look into the history of the 577 brass cases it was to expedite conversion of Pattern 1853 x 577 Enfield muzzleloaders to a breech loader using the system designed by Mr Snider. Cases loaded for the Snider included a buckshot load as well as standard infantry loads and carbine loads for calvary and artillery use.

Both 577 Snider and later 577/450 were firstly made with foil brass material and it may be that anything smaller would have been difficult to manufacture at the time with available equipment.

I've always had a fascination for the 577 Snider as it was such a short lived round (1867-1871) and nobody seemed to 'bother' to develop it further once the Mk1 577/450 Martini Henry was introduced!

So I had the 577 "Super Snider" custom built. A Martini Henry rebarrelled with a 1:48" Lothar-Walther barrel chambered for a drawn brass case. Loaded as you would for BPCR, the case will hold 92gns FFG behind a 615gn plain based boolit! Now recoil in an 8lb rifle off a bench is just painful and the first range session left me with a bleeding face when my thumb was driven into the cheekbone and broke the skin!





I've also done a lot of work on the 577/450 and am confident that my load with filler is an accurate combination!

[bigted]

BA Wallace ... thanks for showing this. very cool and the target is super cool as well. at what range did this group happen at? also could you supply a photo of your loaded round?

[hickstick_10]

They must have made something work with the 450 martini cartridge, even the old military and long range match cartridges are similar to it like the No.1 Gibbs, which strangely enough had a 75 grain charge for military match shooting and a 90 grain load for the non military match rifles (again it raises the same question, whats filling all the space?). And like it or not, the brits were at the forefront of gun design in the 19th century as far as single shots were concerned. I have a hard time thinking that martini cartridge was a compramise.

I dont know about the fowling angle though, the ODGs wouldn't allow for much cleaning between shots in match shooting or the army, regardless of which load was used.

All I know for sure is the more I read about what they did, with what they had, the more in awe I become of the groups they shot.

[The Goose]

I knew that I could trust Mr. Wallace to chime in with something interesting. The "Super Snider" indeed!

[Tackleberry41]

Why? Who knows, outdated thinking maybe. Previous muzzle loading weapons used large amounts of powder, maybe it was a requirement. Not to offend anybody but the Brits can be a bit obtuse about things sometimes.

It does get worse with the 577/450 if you use converted 24ga brass as they will inhale about 110gr. I use a rubber washer sold in the plumbing department, to take up some space in my brass. Would have to look at the size, but almost like it was made to sit down at the bottom of a case, nice hole in the middle for the primer. In the regular drawn brass they take it down to about 70 or so without any fillers. If you punch a larger hole in the center they will go down inside the 24ga formed shells, needs to fit around the primer pocket. You can stack 2 easily, brings it down to a manageable level.

[AkMike]

If you were to take an extra half step, I have an extra set of 577 2 3/4" dies available.

[Bad Ass Wallace]

L to R - 38/55, 40/65, 45/70, 50/70 & 58/92


The Martini Henry 10 shot group was fired at 50 m! Here is another target fired prone at 200m during competition

[ndnchf]

An interesting discussion. Not many folks play with a BPCR over 50 cal. I have a Remington Rolling Block chambered for the .58 Roberts cartridge, which is in the same category as the .58 Berdan, .58 musket and .577 Snyder. Fortunately, its has a shorter chamber - 1.400". I have lathe turned cases for it, reamed to accept a .591", 480gr minie' ball. A full load is 55-60gr of 2F. Its a hoot to shoot. In the future I may get a custom mold for it, but for now this is fun to play with.

Here is a .58 Roberts with a .56-50 Spencer to its left, an unreamed case and minie to its right.

[EDG]

During the dawn of breechloading they were still thinking about silly things like killing horses to stop cavalry and long range volley fire.

BTW there were 3 boxes of .577 Snider Kynoch berdan brass for sale some where earlier this week. The cases clearly had a rolled up paper tube inside of each one. And guess what - the carbine load for the 45-70 used the same technique to reduce the internal volume.

[Hooker53]

Tackleberry41. Sure wish you would post a few photos of that rubber washer/groomed you use in this case with some Dimentions. I would love to try that. I think that is a good idea and saves time on messy wads and stuff. Has anyone here tried a BP substitute with the same volumes? How does Pyrodex work in these big 577 cases. The only real BP I have is ffffg and I know better then to use that. Lol. Thanks

[Tackleberry41]

Not much to see, you put em down inside, pretty hard to see. I saw people using various methods to take up space in the cases. Stacks of wads, kapok, some were using a cardboard liner, anything to reduce capacity even just a little. There are lathe turned ones with thick walls where its pretty much a 45-70 inside. I found the rubber washers idea on one of the forums dedicated to these kinds of weapons. Does the job. I did try pyrodex at first, didnt have any BP at the time. Saw warnings about using 777 in these old rifles. Now I just use BP, 1F is what many recommend, usually something you need to order, never found any at a store to buy. And 1F does reduce your charge a little bit.

Military thinking tends to be a bit slow to change. Well thats the way we have always done it. When the martini came out people were still thinking like muzzle loaders, guys standing in line in bright red uniforms shooting at each other like proper gentlemen. Just like volley sights into WW1, I just cant fathom using such a tactic in an age of modern warfare, thats long bow tactics. Everybody firing in a high arc HOPING to hit something. Even into WW2, 1200 and 2000yd sights on bolt action rifles with iron sights, really? 1200yds with a modern scope on an old enfield rifle is wishful thinking. The British could come up with some really interesting ideas like the crocodile tank or the bouncing bomb, but then would come up with the PIAT anti tank weapon. Probably looked good on paper as things tend to do from an engineering standpoint. The French gave us the Chauchat 'well its better than nothing' no not really.

[herbert buckland]

The 577-450 military cartridge used a paper patched bullet,this fact along with the Henry rifling need plenty of lube to keep the bore clean even with the best black powder,so the case has to have plenty of room for the lube wad,even so the 577-450 cartridge was thought to be out dated even at the time of introduction,by this time there were many better cartridge desighns to choose from,the WR No 2 musket did every thing the 577-450 could and then some in a much smaller cartridge

[zuke]

Not much to see, you put em down inside, pretty hard to see. I saw people using various methods to take up space in the cases. Stacks of wads, kapok, some were using a cardboard liner, anything to reduce capacity even just a little. There are lathe turned ones with thick walls where its pretty much a 45-70 inside. I found the rubber washers idea on one of the forums dedicated to these kinds of weapons. Does the job. I did try pyrodex at first, didnt have any BP at the time. Saw warnings about using 777 in these old rifles. Now I just use BP, 1F is what many recommend, usually something you need to order, never found any at a store to buy. And 1F does reduce your charge a little bit.

Military thinking tends to be a bit slow to change. Well thats the way we have always done it. When the martini came out people were still thinking like muzzle loaders, guys standing in line in bright red uniforms shooting at each other like proper gentlemen. Just like volley sights into WW1, I just cant fathom using such a tactic in an age of modern warfare, thats long bow tactics. Everybody firing in a high arc HOPING to hit something. Even into WW2, 1200 and 2000yd sights on bolt action rifles with iron sights, really? 1200yds with a modern scope on an old enfield rifle is wishful thinking. The British could come up with some really interesting ideas like the crocodile tank or the bouncing bomb, but then would come up with the PIAT anti tank weapon. Probably looked good on paper as things tend to do from an engineering standpoint. The French gave us the Chauchat 'well its better than nothing' no not really.

Get 200 guy's firing 10 round's each at the same point and see what happen's.

[Dan Cash]

Regarding the use of rubber washers as base wads in a cartridge case: Be sure the wad does not blow loose and lodge in the barrel. Results can be exciting. This hazzard is why most reloadable shotgun shells are made without a base wad.

[Hooker53]

Good info guys as always. I love reopening these old threads because something new always pops up. I'm not beyond trying to turn my own brass. I just would not want to do it 100 times on one of my conventional lathes. Lol. But a few would be a hoot. I think a ball endmill would be the ticket down at the bottom where the primer sits. Any drawings out on this guys? Ha. Ha.