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Thread: .456 and .457 (.45 Calibre Winchester) mold descriptions for Lyman / Ideal molds

  1. #1
    Boolit Master ohland's Avatar
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    .456 and .457 (.45 Calibre Winchester) mold descriptions for Lyman / Ideal molds

    Scrounged up some descriptions for .456 / .457 diameter molds from a variety of sources. If some of you-all have better descriptions from Ideal or Lyman catalogs, please post to this thread with the correction or description of the boolit.

    Disclaimer: It is well known that (at times) cherries have been used too long, with undersized cavities resulting. Some throats are too big compared to the groove diameter. Over time, manufacturers held different tolerances and dimensions for the chamber and bore. Different alloys will turn out different diameters. What follows below is simply a collection of the various Ideal and Lyman mold descriptions, which does NOT mean that any particular mold will cast a boolit like you expect. What does this mean? Slug your bore if you don't know the bore/groove dimensions for your gun. If the mold is undersize, you may have to beagle / lap it out some. [ed]

    NOTE: Any loads mentioned are taken from period documents, and are not in any way tested. Please refer to modern loading manuals for safe loads. [ed]

    v/r,
    A fellow servant to the heavy metal

    .456 [.457 for later rifles ed.]is the proper diameter of bullets for all arms using the following cartridges: .45-60-300, .45-70-350, 45-75-350, 45-70-330 Gould, .45-90-300, .45-125-300; all Winchesters. These bullets are all of the same shape and may be interchanged. They will seat properly in any reloading tool for above cartridges. This size is so near the U. S. Government .45 caliber that the bullets of both sizes may be interchanged; the latter, however, require different loading tools.

    456121 / 457121 This is a series of bullets having the standard points. All are correct for any of the regular reloading tools. (PB, 215, 250, 295, 340, 385, 430, 475, Also perfection - TP is 191)

    456122 / 457122 This is the famous .45-330 Gould express bullet, designed by Mr. Barlow, and was originally made for Mr. Gould, editor of Shooting and Fishing. It has a great reputation as a killer of large game. The shape is correct for any of the regular reloading tools for .45 Winchester caliber. It is also used in the .45-70 Government shells. Requires chamber same shape as Winchester bullets. (PB and GC, 330, TP is 191)

    456123. Round ball, is to be used with light charges of powder for small game or short range practice. Requires No. 3 tool with double adjustable chamber. (145)

    456191 / 497191 This is the regular factory bullet for .45-60, .45-90, and .45-125 Express. The .45-90 Winchester shell is loaded with various charges of powder and different bullets; the cartridges are known as .45-85-350, .45-82-405 and .45-90-300. With Perfection mould you can get the whole series of bullets No. 456121 and the same reloading tool will be correct for all. (PB, 350 - TP is 191)

    456192 / 457192 This is the standard bullet for .45-75 and .45-70 Winchester. (PB, 350 - TP is 191)

    .457 is the proper size of bullet for the standard .45 U. S. Government rifles and all other arms using that ammunition. The .456 Winchester bullets are so near this size that they are frequently used for the same arms when lighter bullets are desired ; they, however, require special chamber to load.

    457102 (PB, 445 - TP is 191)

    457124. This is the regular standard .45-70-405 Government bullet and is very satisfactory. PB, 405, TP is 374)

    457125. This is the standard .45-70-500 Government bullet. No. 6 or No. 5 tool is made for this cartridge, as well as for 457124. (PB, 500, TP is 374)

    457126. This is a series of bullets lighter and heavier weight, having same shape as the Government 405 grains. Single mould will make round standard point. Perfection mould will make flat point. Either may be seated with the regular tool. (PB, 305, 365, 405, 465, Also Perfection - TP is 374)

    457127. This bullet has become very popular for light charge, small game, short range or gallery practice. The various U. S. Government Marine Barracks have been furnished with Armory moulds for this bullet, for target practice, on account of its accuracy. It requires double adjustable chamber to seat it. (PB, 210 - TP is 374)

    457128. This bullet is the same as 457127. except that it is lightened by having point flat and base hollow, which is preferred by some. Double adjustable chamber required. (HB, 165 - TP is ?)

    457129. Round ball for very short range, armory or gallery practice. Requires double adjustable chamber. (144)

    457130. This bullet is same weight as the round ball. Is preferred by some for light work on account of having groove for lubrication and two bands to hold on to the rifling. (PB, 144 TP is 130)

    457131. This is the standard factory bullet for the .45-85-285 cartridge. Chambers for .45 Government or .45 Winchester do not seat this bullet properly. (PB, 285 - TP is 190)

    457132. This is a special bullet used by some military sharp shooters for long range target work. It was first made by us for George R. Russell of Boston, Mass., and was first used at Seagirt, by the Boston militia companies. It is now known as the Postell bullet, by which the Georgia Volunteers were victorious at the Military Shoot at Seagirt. Requires special chamber with No. 5 or No. 3 tool.. (PB, 415, 475, 535 - TP is 374)

    457193. Is the regular .45-70-405 Marlin. The difference between it and the .45-70-405 Government is the flat point. (PB, 405 - TP is 191)

    457194. Is a special tip for bullets 457124 and 457193. These tips may be cast of soft, pure lead for mushrooming or upsetting, thus increasing the killing powers ; or they may be cast of a very hard mixture to increase the penetration.Any one having a mould for the .45-70-405 Government or Marlin, or for the .45-70-500 Government may use these tips. The tips are cast from soft or hard metal as desired and then set in the moulds mentioned and the balance of the bullet run from the regular mixture. (Tip - TP is 374)

    457195 is a bullet for the Webley Mark 1 (English) and the Colt's and Smith & Wesson revolvers. (HB, 225 - TP is 191)

    457196 is a bullet for the Webley Mark 1 (English) and the Colt's and Smith & Wesson revolvers. (HB, 290 - TP is 191)

    457235 Very heavy bullet for .45-70 with wide lubricating bands. (PB, 505 - TP is 374)

    457326 A button-ball bullet for the .45-70. (PB, ? - TP is 374) [cherry number not in cherry list, but illus. in Lyman HCB, '57 ed.]

    457401 (PB, 195 TP is 401)

    457406 Standard bullet 457124 designed for gas check. (GC, 475 - TP is 374)

    457474 Designed for the .45-70 with a forward crimping groove. [might have tip available? ed.] (PB, ? TP is 191)

    457483 Gas check bullet designed for .45-70. (GC, 378 - TP is 191)

    457643 (PB, 400 - TP is ?)

    457658 (PB, 480 - TP is ?)

    457671 (GC, 475 - TP is ?)

    462560 (GC, 545 - TP is ?)

    465451 You name it, we've got it (.454 first band, .465 2nd band, .447 two rear bands). (PB, 488 - TP is 191)

    470216 Is for various foreign rifles "Blogden". Use unknown. Casts .471 diameter. (PB, 230, 285, 342, 399, 456, 516 - TP is 460)
    Last edited by ohland; 11-22-2013 at 12:34 AM.

  2. #2
    Boolit Master w30wcf's Avatar
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    ohland,
    Thank you for the history of those vintage, historic Ideal bullets.

    In 1958, Lyman changed the bullets with the 456 prefix to 457 in their 41st Edition manual. No detailed bullet descriptions were given as they were in the earlier Ideal handbooks.

    The Ideal 42498 .44-40 bullet was also updated to 42798 in the 1958 manual. I have an early Ideal 42498 mold and it actually drops bullets measuring .427.

    Also have a 457193 mold that drops .459" bullets.

    w30wcf
    aka w44wcf
    aka Jack Christian SASS 11993 "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me." Philippians 4:13
    aka John Kort
    NRA Life Member
    .22 W.C.F., .30 W.C.F., .44 W.C.F. Cartridge Historian

  3. #3
    Boolit Master ohland's Avatar
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    As you can tell, I'm starting to dig into the more complex calibers. Knocked out some of the smaller groups, and now taking a stab at the 456/457 stuff. Note the newer boolits at the bottom.

    For the dimensions, the as cast diameter should be bigger than the nominal size-to diameter on the mold.

    The 57 HCB shows three 427 dia bullets, but I'm sure that I'll find a few more...

    Some odd heel bullets out there....

  4. #4
    Boolit Bub Chuck_ls's Avatar
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    This is great information. I have both a 456-191 and a 457-191, so next time I fire up the furnace, I am going to cast some of both and see what size they come out. Thanks again for taking the time to share this information with the group.

    Chuck

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check