new member - Lee Loader supplies question

[Dave Bulla]

Ya know, I use lee loaders a lot and I'm still torn on the batch method vs the one round all the way method. One thing I like about the "all the way" method is that there really is no danger of missing the powder charge or having a double charge. You are only dealing with that single case and you pretty much KNOW if you just charged it of not and can always look if you got distracted for a bit. As a matter of fact, that's the real danger when reloading... distractions. Most manuals will tell you that you should develop a routine, avoid drinking, smoking or distractions but I think most people read that and it just doesn't register as an important bit of advice. But back to the one round all the way method. I like it because I think I'm less likely to make a mistake and since all the tools are right there handy and there is no changing of dies or putting parts on or parts off of a press it just flows for me. I think it's one of those things that you have to practice a bit and give it a chance for it to feel natural especially if you are used to batch loading with a press.

If you don't like it, you can always go back to the batch method.

[RogerDat]

Was able to sell the boxes of .270 for $25 at the show so I took the advice of Wayne and picked up a bullet puller. And the advice of tward to get a leather apron for safety when casting, picked one up from Harbor Freight for $10. Not sure when I'll try casting but getting the gear (especially safety gear) together up front seems a good place to start.
Appreciate the recommendations for local sources being offered. Hope to take all the good information on tools and resources and condense it into reference notes I can use in the future.

Currently using the batch method but that is partly in order to get a better "feel" for each step by repeating the same step many times in a row. Did find out how hard is too hard to strike when it comes to seating a primer. But only set off 1 out of 50 and it was not too bad having a primer go off, worse for the dog, she was trying to nap while I was whacking away, totally not amused to suddenly have a loud "pop" go off. Was smart enough to do this step while wife was not at home, pretty sure she would have been even less amused.

I'm part way through making my first box of 38 special 125 grain flat nose with .5 cc of Unique (4.6 grains). Ending up with a consistent 37 mm overall cartridge length. I am noticing that many if not most end up shaving a tiny thin ring of lead and lube when the bullet is pressed in. Easy to remove by just running my thumbnail along the top of the brass. Not sure if that ring is a bad thing indicating I should have chamfered the case in addition to using the Lee flaring tool. Or if it is a good thing indicating that I'm getting a tight seal, as it would be if loading a cap and ball revolver.

I'm also not 100% sure on seating depth.
This image is pretty much identical to what I am loading http://www.midwayusa.com/product/204...lead-flat-nose
I am seating to just past the top of the upper groove, just barely on the flat that forms the shoulder. Seemed to me I would not want the groove exposed. Opinions or insight would be welcome. Hope I don't have to employ that bullet puller I just bought!

I am not planning to crimp the cases. My understanding was crimping is optional and without the home made bushing some people use it would be difficult to get consistency tapping with a mallet.

[Dave Bulla]

Well, a couple things to point out.

First off, you don't want to shave lead off of a cast bullet. It's already very difficult to get a perfectly cast bullet, imbalancing it further by shaving off random amounts of lead won't help accuracy at all. You may have to champher the inside more and flare it more. If you are using the flare tool that comes with the kit, there is a lip that stops the flare at the correct amount.

Question, when you load the bullet, does it drop through the die onto the case mouth or do you have to push it in with the seating tool? It is common that a cast bullet is oversize compared to a jacketed one and they often will not fit through the hole in the die. If you are having to drive it through, you might be shaving the lead there but not seeing it until you take the completed round out after seating the bullet. To get around that, lift the die off the charged case and sit the bullet on the case mouth by hand and lower the die back down over it all then seat normally.

Second, I would strongly suggest that you go ahead and crimp your cases even if you don't get them perfect. I'm one of the guys who posted in various places about using a home made bushing to get perfect crimps but I'll tell you what, while it works great, you can do an adequate job without it. It just takes a little care in "feeling" the stack is straight and tapping with the mallet face flat to the tool. If you do not crimp, you run the chance that bullets can move either into the case like in a tube magazine rifle or out of it which happens in revolvers due to recoil. The moving deeper issue is the dangerous one as it raises pressure dramatically. Moving out of the case will just lock up your revolver so the cylinder won't turn and you have to disassemble it to fix it.

On the seating depth, most cast bullets have the crimp groove correctly located to give the proper overall length. Double check it by measuring a couple rounds. I like to have the depth where the case mouth after crimping is touching the forward edge of the crimp groove. Basically, it follows the contour of the crimp groove.

[Wayne Smith]

You will want to set a crimp on any revolver round. You take the chance of having a boolit pull part way out upon the recoil of another shot and lock up your gun. Not fun when it happens. Not a problem, I take a piece of 3/8" brass rod to the range with me anyway.

With a light touch with the bullet puller you can adjust the seat depth of a seated boolit. I'm very seldom able to do it, but have once or twice.

You want the boolit seated out so it just is inside the cylinder of the gun. You can use your gun as a measure. Seat too short (deep) and you are reducing the powder expansion capacity and increasing pressure. May not be a problem with your middle of the road load, but when you get a scale (NOT LEE) you will want to experiment with other loads. If you have data for that boolit you will also have an OAL measure. Get a caliper and check your loads if you have such a measure. This is the seating depth the data is using.

[RogerDat]

Well, a couple things to point out.

... You may have to champher the inside more and flare it more. If you are using the flare tool that comes with the kit, there is a lip that stops the flare at the correct amount.

Question, .... If you are having to drive it through, you might be shaving the lead there but not seeing it until you take the completed round out after seating the bullet. To get around that, lift the die off the charged case and sit the bullet on the case mouth by hand and lower the die back down over it all then seat normally.

Second, I would strongly suggest that you go ahead and crimp your cases even if you don't get them perfect. I'm one of the guys who posted in various places about using a home made bushing to get perfect crimps but I'll tell you what, while it works great, you can do an adequate job without it. It just takes a little care in "feeling" the stack is straight and tapping with the mallet face flat to the tool.....

On the seating depth, most cast bullets have the crimp groove correctly located to give the proper overall length. Double check it by measuring a couple rounds. I like to have the depth where the case mouth after crimping is touching the forward edge of the crimp groove. Basically, it follows the contour of the crimp groove.

I'm hitting the stop lip on the flaring tool so it seems like I should plan on a touch with a champher tool.

All the lead shaving is taking place on the case edge. I'm starting the bullet on the case by hand and setting the guide on it after to seat the bullet. Dropping through and giving just a touch of hand pressure to the rod I then lifted the guide off and saw the case to bullet alignment was not starting out very well aligned and the kit instructions said it might be easier/better to start by hand rather than dropping through so I went that route.

Sounds like there is a consensus on crimping so I'll give that a shot. I am right on the top edge of the crimp groove, just hiding the groove so I guess I'll have to give crimping a try to see if the case goes into the groove or bites the top edge. I'm guessing that cutting the top edge of the groove with the crimp would be undesirable as it would probably shave off on firing.

My OAL is 1.45 and Alliant site and Lee kit card list 1.44 OAL for a 125 gr. bullet. If I seat that .01 amount deeper on the bullet (assuming I can adjust to that close of tolerance) I would be crimping against the flat above the groove. I might have to use the puller to back out a tiny amount and reseat the bullet to be right in the groove which would increase my OAL.

The Lee card does not list Unique for 125 lead and Alliant site does not list plain lead, just GD hollow point. But I figure the same mass (125 gr) will yield generally the same pressure to overcome the inertia. So I should have slightly less pressure right?

The projectile is a well short of the front of the cylinder. A 158 gr. round nose gets closer to full cylinder length but I'm loading a shorter bullet. Sounds like that won't yield the max accuracy possible.

From my reading it sounds like to get the most accuracy I would want the bullet to start closer to the forcing cone, while reducing charge to accommodate increased case pressure from the extra resistance of having the rear of the bullet still in the case when it meets the resistance of the forcing cone. For me, at this point, working that out correctly would be crawling way past my speed. Sounds like I would need a precise scale, loading manual, understand the manual, and probably a powder trickler before I could even attempt it.

I had heard that the Lee scale left something to be desired, any opinions on the RCBS and Lyman beam budget scales? They run around $50 or so. I'm sort of working out a "need" and "want" list so I can do some watching of prices and reading reviews.

[Wayne Smith]

1) Since you are using data and a short boolit .01" won't matter and where the crimp is really isn't an issue as long as it holds the boolit in the case.
2) I was surprised to recently read a member who actually tested accuracy with a revolver and boolits at various distances from the forcing cone and found absolutely no difference! So no, if you are using a short boolit (I missed that in your original post) you don't need to worry.
3) yes, you are getting way too anal to be worrying about internal ballistics at this point in the game. (External ballistics - from the muzzle to the target. Internal ballistics - from the primer ignition to the muzzle)
4) The only problem with the Lee scale is inadequate capacity. If you will only ever weigh powder and nothing else it is probably adequate. We are boolit casters. I had a RCBS 505 for years and then started casting for 45-70, 40-70, and 500 S&W. All of my scales now have a 1000 grain capacity!
5) Having both the only major difference between RCBS and Lyman is the way the scale is organized. RCBS has 10 divisions on the 1/10 grain bar, Lyman has 5 divisions. Makes no difference unless you, like me, have both, then it keeps you on your toes! Both are made by Ohaus.
6) Generally lead causes less resistance sliding down the barrel (internal ballistics) than does gliding metal. Thus we can use full data without worrying about over pressuring the case. We do need to be concerned about alloy strength, however.
7) Your first investment should be a loading manual. Lyman or Sierra are excellent introductions to the process of loading and a whole world of data.
8) You haven't posted your location. It may be that one of us live close enough to you to lend books and instruct your process.

[RogerDat]

1). Good to know, am going to look for a lighter mallet before doing the crimp. I can control a 24 oz well enough for the other steps but for crimping I think less weight will give me more control.
2). Nothing like collecting actual data to answer a question, maybe it matters more in rifles..... that level of the craft is really way past my current top speed. Still I found reading about the issues raise in the answers here interesting.
3). That whole "External ballistics" is a large part of my justification for attempting to reload. Make it so I can afford to work on that barrel to target more.
With a healthy dose of I find the whole process interesting, so much more to it once you move past just buying a box of ammo.
4 & 5) Got it. Budget Lyman or RCBS scale means giving up capacity to weigh heavy projectiles.
7) Manual is on the top of my list, have been reading the online book linked to in the sticky, I figure if I have to read it twice and think I'm probably learning something. Trying to get by on just the loader kit and advice will only get one so far. RTFM (read the friendly manual) is often the best place to start, probably what I should have done. Will rectify that as soon as I can.
8) Added location to profile. There are people in the area on the forum, I may reach out to them via PM but probably not until after the holidays. People tend to be really busy during this time of year.

For me equipment is something of a balancing act, I can't afford to buy cheap junk that won't work, last, or need to be replaced due to shortcomings, against not sinking more than I can justify into advanced or top of the line equipment when starting a new hobby. The knowledge shared by the members here is really helpful in finding that balance.

I am trying to work out a spread sheet of where certain activities are going to require certain equipment. E.G to cast bullets I will need to test hardness which requires some equipment and knowledge beyond just the bullet mold and a way to melt lead. At some point I will have to decide to commit resources (time/money) to continue advancing in this craft, or decide it's not something for me to pursue beyond a certain point. In which case I will add myself to the market for the folks that cast and sell to help pay for their equipment. But I really want to at least have tried casting once, even if I have to purchase the alloy to avoid purchase of equipment to test hardness.

I did the same thing with photography, bought basic camera that allowed me to learn how to use manual settings, bought something a little better, then purchased a digital SLR. I am not able to justify purchase of pro level camera, lenses, or lighting, however a good consumer level SLR camera, some decent used lenses, and budget lighting equipment allows me to take the pictures I want to take. Since some of those pictures are of my wifes dance group and their performances the expense has benefit to both sides of our partnership. Reloading and casting is strictly "my thing". Wife would be content to plink away with a box of .22 rim fire a couple of times a year and buy a box of 38's. Takes pride in her gun knowledge and ability but would rather go out to dinner than purchase a set of reloading dies.

[Dave Bulla]

Hey RogerDat,

If you are interested, I've got a Dillon balance beam powder scale that I picked up at a yard sale last spring dirt cheap. I think maybe it's never been used other than when I tested it out when I got it home. It's nothing fancy and I'm not sure of the model without going to look at it. In the interest of helping out a new guy, I think I can make it worth your while. Drop me a message and we'll see what we can work out.

[Mk42gunner]

I will second you need to get a good manual. All of the current ones I am aware of spell out the steps for reloading in excruciating detail; aimed towards using their products of course.

If you are shaving lead while seating the bullet, you need to flare the case mouth more.

Be careful and ask questions if you don't understand something,

Robert

[RogerDat]

.....Be careful and ask questions if you don't understand something,

RObert

In that vein of being careful and asking questions, when I crimped the shells tonight I realized that what had been a faint line in a ring around some brass had become enough of a groove to catch with a fingernail. Located approx. 5mm down from the case mouth. Only thing I can compare it to is a line made when cutting copper tube, if the cutter was just barely tight enough to score the tube as it went around. During resize that line that I could faintly see had become stretched into a groove I could feel with my finger nail. Seemed like that would make the case weak, right around where the bullet base would be.

Is this normal or should I probably scrap that brass?

Does seem odd, resize is compressing the case yet this is more like a scratch was stretched. What might cause this, and what should I do to avoid it? Especially if those cases become scrap.

On a positive note the crimps came out nice.

[Wayne Smith]

I have been casting boolits for rifle and pistol for over ten years and have never invested in anything to test hardness. WDWW are hard enough for the rifles and ADWW or 20-1 is hard enough for pistols. That's all I need to know to use them.

Up to about .35 or .366 your boolits are unlikely to go over 500gr. The RCBS 505 and equivalent are adequate scales unless you are planning on getting a 45-70 or like caliber rifle.

We really need pics of the line you are inquiring about. You are right - in the Lee loader you are compressing, not stretching the case. Many .38 Special cases have that line around them, it is a seating line for wadcutter ammo. Is this what you are seeing?

[RogerDat]

I have been casting boolits for rifle and pistol for over ten years and have never invested in anything to test hardness. WDWW are hard enough for the rifles and ADWW or 20-1 is hard enough for pistols. That's all I need to know to use them.

Up to about .35 or .366 your boolits are unlikely to go over 500gr. The RCBS 505 and equivalent are adequate scales unless you are planning on getting a 45-70 or like caliber rifle.

We really need pics of the line you are inquiring about. You are right - in the Lee loader you are compressing, not stretching the case. Many .38 Special cases have that line around them, it is a seating line for wadcutter ammo. Is this what you are seeing?

I have a bunch of existing lead ingot and scrap of unknown hardness. Will probably try pencil test to at least get a rough idea, might all be plain lead. Need some idea of what alloy will be required to get to WW type mix that you suggest would handle my needs very well. Largest bullet weight I might hit would be in the 300's for 45 LC.

Could well be a seating line for wad cutters, or some other bullet. This brass came out of all my loose brass so it is pretty mixed. Would not know what original bullet was. All cases display line at same point. 5 mm or 13/64 inch down from mouth. Most common bullet I would have purchased would be 158 gr round nosed lead or plated. But there were some wadcutters too. On some other 38 spc I did see a line further down.

[Wayne Smith]

Yup. That's what that line is. It was there originally, don't worry. It is a seating line for factory wadcutters, two different length's/seating depth.

From what you say the RCBS 505 is all the scale you need. I see them all the time on eBay, folks who are using electronic scales and getting rid of their balance beams. I trust the balance beams more, have three of them.

The pencil hardness test is adequate for our needs - it is cheap and close enough.

[RogerDat]

I am hoping that some 3/4 inch lead plates I have might be an alloy, possibly with tin. Hopefully not zinc. Originally they were in a metal box with a bar through them, I think they were a counter weight to something like a RR or parking lot crossing arm. Slightly lighter color and different more ringing "tone" when dropped as compared to my lead ingots. Seem a little bit harder than lead ingots too but not by a huge amount.

Will post a picture or link to a picture of those cases this evening, I think the mystery of what is solved, just want to be sure that the imperfection is not too great to be safe. One split case could ruin my day (or wifes, kids or grandkids day). Even if no injury resulted the loss of confidence would be huge problem going forward.

[Wayne Smith]

Not a problem with shooting safety. Anything you can melt in a pot is softer than gliding metal or copper, both of which are or have been routinely used in condom bullets. The issue with zinc is that too much of it (almost any) turns your melt to mush and makes it uncastable. Nothing you can easily melt and stuff into a cartridge when formed will 'blow up a gun'!

Oh, well, the above was a response to misreading your post! Agreed, pics of the cases would be a good idea just to confirm. However, having shot split cases - or rather have cases split on me when shooting, there has not been a lot of drama as a result. This is when the split is a result of overly hard cases, not because of an overload.

[RogerDat]

Hmm so if it melts and pours from ladel into ingot mold smooth it's probably not zinc, seems like a simple test. My current thinking is I'll melt some of my scrap, pour into Lee ingot mold to get a feel for things but probably purchase a bar of known good bullet alloy from Rotometals for my first attempt at casting bullets. Improve my chances of good results and still save some money. If that works move on to getting alloy to adjust my scrap ingots to be good bullet material.

I keep saying to the wife (and myself too) just because a bullet is dangerous does not mean making them is any more dangerous than a lot of other things I do that seem "normal". Being on a ladder 15 ft in the air setting 16ft 2x12's solo was not a totally safe undertaking but it's how you build a pergola over an elevated deck. Come to think about it she worried about me then too. Just not as much. Seen me building stuff for about 20 yrs. I know how to work on a ladder or use power tools safely and she and I both know it. However pounding on bullets or melting lead is a new activity with it's own hazards to learn and be aware of. And DW knows I'm a rookie

[CastingFool]

For you Lansing, MI area boolit brothers, one good place to shop for reloading supplies is Schantz Tire in Otsego. I stopped there late last summer and picked up some primers and powder. I thought their prices were reasonable, and looked like their shelves were well stocked. I wish they were closer. It's a 90 mile round trip for me.

[RogerDat]

Hopefully this will allow experienced members to offer an opinion on the question of is this brass sound or scrap. Let me provide a disclaimer for you. Liability is limited to what I paid for the opinion. You are not responsible for my taking or ignoring your opinion, for all you know I'm not competent to play with metal silverware or matches, let alone reload ammunition. That about cover putting a lawyer out of business?

[Wayne Smith]

Nice crimp! That line doesn't look like any of my .38 brass. I assume it wasn't there before you sized and loaded them?

[RogerDat]

Nice crimp! That line doesn't look like any of my .38 brass. I assume it wasn't there before you sized and loaded them?

It was a very faint razor thin line you could see but not really "feel" before reloading. Some cases post reloading the line is still only a visible scratch after reloading, others turned out like this one, as a groove.

I was reviewing the steps done with the lee loader and pounding case in to size would not pull or stretch that line but what about driving it out? Case gets driven out of loader when case is being pounded down onto the primer, using a rod that only pushes on the base of the case. I would think the top of the case would be the part being held tightly, evidenced by the scuffing all around the top of the case on either side of the line.

Case held at top, force applied to bottom = stretch? Question is did it damage the case.