show me a paper patch group

[webradbury]

Does anyone have a photo of a good group with a paper patch load? I'm beginning to get discouraged and I'm only shooting at 200 yards. I was just curious to see what others were able to do.

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Shot at Raton 5@200 Match 1.336 inches 200 yards. Same load ammo has won, A national Creedmoor Scope Championship, 3 Regional Championships. Several National-World Records from 200 yards too 1 Mile.

The Lunger

[webradbury]

Then I'm definetly doing symptom wrong!

[Lead pot]

Here are several several different calibers of my better accomplishments working up loads. If you ask can I do this every time I will flat tell you NO! When someone will tell you they can do this every day all day long[ walk away from him!!
The top two were shot at 130 yards the rest were shot at 200 yards.
The target with the big hole was shot at 200 yards with the .44-100 Rem st. with no fouling control just emptying cases between 70 and 80 cases, dont remember for sure.
But yes a PP load or GG is capable of shooting sub MOA.

[webradbury]

I need to figure out a load cause I'm getting around 8" groups at 200 with my C. Sharps. I know the rifle will do better...I know I can shoot (not bragging)...so it has to be my loads. The boolits should be sound considering what I paid for the mold from Accurate Mold (excellent mold..love it!!!). I'm thinking @.441, the boolit isn't bumping up enough. With the patch, it will slide into the bore with easy pressure. Maybe I should get a boolit .001 larger. I'm thinking my buoolits aren't very stable in flight. I just don't know.

[Gunlaker]

Here are a few of mine from some different rifles. I'm sure that if someone like Kenny were shooting my rifles the groups would be smaller and the flyers would go away .

CSA 1885 .38-55 16:1 elliptical bullet patched to bore and breech seated. Eight shots at 200m that measures 1.04 MOA high. To be fair there were two flyers out of the group.



Same rifle, same bullet but in 20:1. Ten shots at 100m. Eight of those into 0.6" high and just under 1.0" wide. That's my best 10 shot paper patched group at 100m if you discount the flyers


CSA 1874 with DanT paper patch chamber in .45-70. 6x MVA scope and a .444" BACO Money bullet patched to bore. 9 shots at 200m, just under 2.5" high and a fair bit wider


Shiloh 16Lb bull barrel .45-110. 105gr Goex Fg and a .444" BACO Money using a lube cookie. Nine out of ten shots with 2.6" vertical with the fouler not shown as it was high and out of the group.


That's about what I can make mine do so far. They all shoot a pretty consistent amount of vertical at 200m, but I generally get a fair bit of horizontal and a couple of flyers. I'd say most of that is due to holding inconsistency.

My greaser groove rifles are probably not as consistent "vertical wise" although my .45-70 Shiloh LRE shooting the GG Money bullet is, on average, still my most consistently accurate rifle.

Chris.

[Lead pot]

Try holding your tongue on the other side of your cheek just kidding.

Maybe if you tell us about your load. Bullet profile what you're using for powder,wads,compression,alloy, case prep and primers.
The best mould in the world cant cast the best bullet if the person casting that bullet is not doing it right.
You will probably get a lot of help here if you give enough information.

[Gunlaker]

I need to figure out a load cause I'm getting around 8" groups at 200 with my C. Sharps. I know the rifle will do better...I know I can shoot (not bragging)...so it has to be my loads. The boolits should be sound considering what I paid for the mold from Accurate Mold (excellent mold..love it!!!). I'm thinking @.441, the boolit isn't bumping up enough. With the patch, it will slide into the bore with easy pressure. Maybe I should get a boolit .001 larger. I'm thinking my buoolits aren't very stable in flight. I just don't know.

What is your rifle chambered in? I started shooting paper patch in a .45-110 CSA 1874 with a standard chamber. It shot like **** until Dean (powderburner) suggested I use a lube cookie. I tried it at 100m and it put 3 shots into less than an inch. After that I moved to 200m and the first ten shot group was just over 3" high. I've tweaked the load a little since then, just added a few more grains of powder and a slight change to the wads. The load is pretty simple, WLR primer, 105gr Goex Fg, 0.060" veg king wad, 0.125" lube cookie, 0.060" veg king wad. 0.444" BACO Money bullet in 20:1 patched with 9lb paper that I bought from BACO.

My CSA 1885 in .45-70 has never shot PP quite as well though, but it has an obscenely oversized (diameter) freebore. I think it was chambered on a Friday afternoon at about beer 'o clock.

Chris.

[bigted]

Chris, what weight is your Baco .444 boolit?

[Gunlaker]

Ted the .444" is a 540gr and about 1.5" long. I also have the shorter .446" mould which is, IIRC, 1.45" long and about 535gr.

Chris.

[bigted]

thanks

[webradbury]

Here is what I'm shooting...

Weapon:
C. Sharps 1874 45-70 w/34" barrel

Load:
Starline Brass
LR Primer
68gn Goex Fg drop tubed then compressed .30"
Wax paper disc
3/16" lube disc
.030 vegetable wad
.441 Accurate Mold boolit patched to bore diameter with 9# onion skin paper
taper crimped

I can't remember what the wrapped diameter of the boolit is...I'll have to measure when I get home. As far as the alloy, I know it's pretty soft but I don't know the make up. This might be part of the problem.

[Nobade]

What does the chamber in your rifle look like? I ask because I have a C.Sharps 45-70 and it has about 3/8 inch of freebore before the rifling starts. It shoots grease groove boolits great, with black or smokeless. It shoots paper patched boolits great if they are groove diameter. But it absolutely refuses to shoot boolits patched to bore, like you are trying to do. I get similar accuracy, about 10 inch groups at 200M with it that way. A big thick grease cookie helps a lot, but it has never given reasonable results this way.

You might try some .452" boolits patched to .460" and seated to engage the rifling and see what happens. It is the only way I can get mine to work with patched boolits.

-Nobade

[webradbury]

Thanks, nobade, that's interesting. I haven't had a chance do a chamber casting yet but I guess I need to go ahead and do that. If what you describe is the case, I might as well just get me a good GG boolit mold and shoot that way. I like PP'ing but I like accuracy better!

[Don McDowell]

Thinner lube cookie, a bit more powder and scrap the crimp.. Chamfer the inside of the case mouths. Be mindful of your fouling control.

[Lead pot]

webradbury

Here is my suggestion for what you posted. I still have to make some assumptions in what order your wad stack is in the case.
If the wax paper is over the powder than the lube wad chances are some oil from your lube, (you didn't mention what lube,) is migrating into the powder and this will change the burn rate and it will give you a lot of vertical.
Your bullet diameter patched will play a role in this depending on the alloy. If your .441 bullet is patched with #9 papers, the paper will vary in thickness from .0017 to .0021-2 from my paper stock I have from different mills.
With the wad stack you have gases that can get by if the alloy is too hard to obdurate enough to help seal the bore if the bullet is too far under bore diameter and you will get gas cuts. I can show you a lot of test result photo's on this. This will open your group big time and dirt diggers at extended ranges.
My suggestion for this is use an alloy of known content or recover bullets and look to see what is going on. If you want to use the unknown alloy or hard alloy patch them tight to bore or a little over bore diameter.
If your rifle is one of those that has a long Cylinder free bore that is groove diameter patch that bullet just tight enough to that free bore so you can load the round. Don't go over the free bore diameter so you have to use a tool to seat the cartridge.

If you need to reduce your case mouth to hold the bullet I would not taper crimp the case with the bullet in it. What this does; it puts a thin edge into the patch and if the crimp is too tight it will cut the patch at this point also it will swage the bullet to a lesser diameter. When you start with a .441" you might end up with a .399".
My suggestion with reducing the case mouth is use that taper crimp die as a sizing die before you seat the bullet to the amount of neck tension you want and put a slight flair on the case mouth so you can seat your bullet without tearing the patch. This way of doing this; you will have to make a custom case neck expanding stem with a slight flair for the amount of neck tension you want and a flair enough so you can seat the bullet without tearing the patch and use the taper crimp die set so you just take the flair out or leave the flair if the loaded round fits the chamber. This also might help keeping the case mouth centered in the chamber.
Finding a load is not hard and you can find it with less than 20 rounds to see if it will work or not.
I use a three shot ladder development. I start with zero compression increased 2 grains every three rounds to heavy compression.
You will usually see two tight groups show up. Take the best and load 5 rounds and check it again. If it holds drop or raise a grain and see if it gets better. Switch primers or wad stacks. It all makes a difference.

I know all this sounds like a lot of work, but if you want to get everything out of the rifle that it is capable of I do it.

[bigted]

Shot at Raton 5@200 Match 1.336 inches 200 yards. Same load ammo has won, A national Creedmoor Scope Championship, 3 Regional Championships. Several National-World Records from 200 yards too 1 Mile.

The Lunger

Kenny, I am admittedly color blind ... however it looks like to me that those boolits are of a copper color ... or is this just the sun in my eyes?

[Don McDowell]

Ted it's just the light and tint on that picture.

[webradbury]

Just measured my boolits. Unpatched - 0.441...patched 0.448 although I got a couple 0.447 measurements. Don't know if this helps. I'm also planning on ordering a good GG boolit mold...any suggestions on design? I'm going to try both types of boolits, patched and GG and may the bestest load win!!

[Don McDowell]

645 saeco will do most anything a 45-70 needs doing except make weight for Raton, then you might want to take a look at the BACO 527gr money bullet or 510 gr creedmoor.
When you cut the lube cookie down to 1/8 inch or less, put it in between those .030 wads.